GUIDED CHAOS: The Fastest Way to Learn Survival Self-defense:
1. Simple, brutal methods that can be mastered in weeks.
2. Advanced methods that can take you to the highest levels
in the shortest time.
|ARCHIVED FORUM FROM OUR OLD WEBSITE|
|New Forum Facebook Contact Us|
ASSAULTED IN YOUR HOME—NOW WHAT?
This question came to me after seeing some news stories relating to this. When some people are confronted with a burglar in their home the victim sometimes says they were tied up and put in a closet or something of that sort while the person or persons robbed the house. So this generated a question in my head. If you were being robbed in your own home and the burglar said he'd tie you up and wouldn't hurt you, should you go along with this? Yes, I know common sense says not to, I mean here's a stranger wanting to tie you up. And another thing is, if you're tied you cannot defend yourself if they suddenly change their minds. But sometimes the residents of the house just get tied up, put in a closet, and that's it, the robbers leave after they have what they came for. And what if by refusing to be tied triggers something in the burglar and they get angry and use their weapon on you. But I guess this question has a common sense answer and by me going into this I'll probably end up answering my own question here. I'm guessing even though the burglar doesn't intend to harm you you really can't take that chance, so if you're confront with someone in your home you gotta dish out the goods and stop him/them. But would this go against being a pacifist warrior on some level? Meaning, you might bring violence into a situation that might not have been violent. But my guess is you should never submit to some one who plans to tie you up and rob you. And I was curious if there are any "signals" or "give aways" that might let you know if the person really doesn't mean to harm you or if they're just tricking you. Thank you for your time and I hope my questions made sense. Have a great day.
Generally you have to have something that a burglar wants. If he is in your home he is now a robber. In NYS a burglar who enters a dwelling at night with people has crossed a serious line and is now simply by just entering commiting a major felony. Most people who will enter an occupied dwelling mean business and have a plan for the occupants. If it is a home invasion then all bets are off. You and members of your family are at high risk for death, usually after some form of torture. If the bad guys are only after your treasure and only want to secure you and family members while taking what they came for and you are able to actually read their minds concerning not harming anyone then good luck. I can't read minds and usually what a bad guy says he is not going to do is just exactly what he will do. If you have to fight after someone with a weapon and friends have entered your home you will need a miracle to win. If you have family members present you will need a biblical miracle to save you. The answer is not can you read a certain sign whether or not you will be harmed after being tied up. The answer is prevention. A good alarm system and a dedicated dog go far in your favor for a home invasion. If you have access to firearms and really know how to use them under extreme conditions that would help. Even in the case of homes with alarms some home invaders have ignored them and just kicked in the front and or back doors to enter and had the home owner turn off the alarm or give the code word to the alarm company at the threat of death. Treasure comes in many forms. It could be that you have money that someone knows about. Daughters who some psychos would like to know better. I have doors and windows which are difficult to break and a tiny poodle which has ears like a bat and will always give warning of anyone near my home. My tiny poodle will not only alarm me but my big bad pit bull. I have no treasure but my well armed girl friend. Are you gettin the picture? If somone got into my place and wanted to tie me up I would resist as much as possible. I don't have children to worry about. If you do then you should make a burglar extremely unwelcome. Good luck, John Perkins
Bad Bruce Lee advice! GTX
I think people who get into attackproof read a Bruce Lee book somewhere that said "no way as way" and decided they never had to practice kata (probably their too lazy anyway). Kata practice makes you able to handle all different attacks if its done right. Thats why you'll never see an attackproof school in your neighborhood.
05/15/03 at 09:22:46
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Anonymous
I am very intrigued by what you have to say. You should stop by one of the ATTACKPROOF classes and show everyone just how kata practice helps enhance one's abilities in defending against various attacks.
05/15/03 at 15:32:32
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! GTX
I've seen what attackproof looks like, its slow and soft like tai chi which doesn't work either. power is always better. I've worked out with tai chi people and their defense is like cotton candy. Their punches also.
05/15/03 at 16:47:46
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Humble Student
Just because attack proof class "fights" are slow and appear soft does not mean it is ineffective. We look soft because we stay soft to avoid injury when someone is trying really hard to hurt us. Our punches & kicks are not soft however, they are just slow, so not to hurt our training partner. We go slow to learn what works and the correct way to hit without hurting our training partner. As one progresses, one can go faster. If you go faster before your ready, you get hurt because you will not have learned to stay soft and avoid the attacks.
Attackproof doesn't have katas. We do have drills. (balance, looseness, multi-angle hitting, etc.) Some do the drills out of class, others don't. I am sure that is true everywhere. If katas are so great, why doesn't Drivers Education use it? Because, your reactions to ever changing situations is more reliable than a rigid do this then do that system. No one ever told me someone would stop in the middle of the highway, while everyone else is doing 60+. No kata for that. I just had to use my wits. Oh, and using only the breaks is not the answer.
05/15/03 at 18:17:35
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! GTX
Yeah, but you can't be soft when you're going full speed! How can you block a full speed punch in the face soft! You have to block it hard or become hamburger.
05/15/03 at 20:54:19
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Hudson
"You have to block it hard or become hamburger."
I'm surprised you can't think of any other way to avoid becoming hamburger - like maybe moving and/or counterattacking ? Also, it doesn't seem like a block needs to be that strong if it is done right.
05/15/03 at 22:24:13
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Ted Stal
I have seen the Attack Proof guys working out in a park in Rockland county last year. Apparently you have misinterpreted what you saw. These guys practice slow but will punch you across a room or slam you to the ground. I work out with personal professional fighting students of the Gracies and found the strikes from the Attack Proof people to be devastating. It may serve you well to drop by one of their classes and try it for yourself. One of my Police buddies did and thought it was a real eye opener. Good luck
05/16/03 at 01:12:29
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! GTX
Practice slow and you fight slow. Block soft and you'll be soft. Real fights are full speed, full power. If you have no techniques or kata you can only fight sloppy with weak strikes that hit nothing. What are you gonna do-make stuff up? Sorry, but that's how you have to train to be real.
05/16/03 at 07:57:12
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Major Al
First of all I want to thank GTX for writing and starting off this forum with a lively topic, we don't want this thing to become a form of mutual admiration society, nobody learns anything that way. With that said I think one of the things we need to understand with regard to “kata” is that while its intention is well meaning, it is woefully inadequate for “real fighting.” This is because kata and any other type of forms within the martial arts are based upon a reality that does not exist in real fighting! [This is what Bruce Lee discovered the hard way.]
Mind you I'm not in total agreement with many things that Bruce Lee said because I believe he had some wrong ideas about some things, but my fighting experience and that of many high level black belt students, military and law enforcement personnel that I've instructed has taught me that this philosophy of "no way as the way" is true.
Like I stated before, while I understand the intent of kata, kata assumes you know what the attacker is going to do before hand, or that the fight is going to go down the way you want it to, heck if you knew that, there would be no fight. You would just crack the attacker across the neck before he could get his stuff off in the first place.
I agree with his assessment of Tai Chi, however Tai Chi fails in fights not because the principles are wrong, but because they believe that their “forms” along with their so-called mystical chi powers will work during the utter chaos and mayhem of a real fight. This is the same classical mistake being made in dojo's all over the country, and so it fails for the same reasons I've mentioned above.
As for blocking with hard strikes the only thing I can say is that anyone who relies on hard strikes to block obviously has never had to deal with some of the psycho street killers that I know. That may work in the dojo, but not against street hardened thugs high on drugs and hell bent on your destruction. When you learn to block solely with hard blocking techniques, you're assuming that you're going to be stronger than any would be attacker. My question is, are you willing to bet your life on that assumption?
As for being “soft” while moving full speed, a better word would be “relaxed.” When a sprinter sprints his body is relaxed, if it is not there is no way he can achieve max acceleration, even Boxers when they Box they are relaxed. It's very simple the more relaxed you are the more responsive your muscles are and the faster you can move. When you're able to move faster along with greater muscle control you are able to strike with greater penetrating or killing force.
Here's the deal if you're into doing katas, I say more power to you, it's definitely a good workout, but just like doing knuckle push-ups they have absolutely nothing to do with real fighting.
05/16/03 at 12:42:31
Re: Bad Bruce Lee advice! Theo
Hallo everybody! Congratulations for the new website and for the forum! I cannot think of a better way to help anybody who is interested in self-defence and Attack Proof specially to learn.
I started my research for a self-defence system after a street attack I experienced one and a half year ago. I consider Attack Proof the best thing that has happened to me during that research. I have watched a lot of instructional tapes and read many books and I believe that the Attack Proof book and videos and John Perkins' Ki Chuan Do are the closest and best ways to train for the "real thing".
However, I think that katas have their value in training. They teach you balance and they put into muscle memory certain moves like blocks and strikes and as Major Al said, it can be a good workout. Of course, in Attack Proof there are many drills to help you develop balance as well as sensitivity, body unity and looseness. I think any Martial Artist or self defence practitioner would benefit a lot from these drills without having to abandon his traditional training.
This, of course, is my humble opinion. I have had very little martial arts training in the past and no training in Attack Proof yet, but I am planning to do a lot of the later as soon as I recover from a broken leg (street attack, broken leg, what a year, eh?)
Thank you. Train hard and stay safe!
05/17/03 at 05:48:07
fighting for real Henry Taylor
I have read ATTACK PROOF and found it to be the most insightful book on actual close combat around. Only if you are about to fight a slow drunk or someone much weaker will fancy high kicks and magic punches from a memorized kata work. In the real world of able bodied attackers speed and surprise is the norm. Thanks for the book. And, by the way I looked up the class schedule on the web site and there are 4 established Attack Proof schools in the the New York area.
05/16/03 at 00:57:24
Aggression Ladder Tony LoCasto
Recently I read an article published by a major martial art magazine about the different levels of aggression that you may encounter and how you should respond. They used a ladder to illustrate the aggression levels.
To make things simple lets use three levels,
First level strong language.
Second level, invading your personal space. (Push or a poke)
Third level, the opponent has engaged you in a physical combat. No doubt that he or she means you physical harm.
My question to you is should it be our responsibility to evaluate another person's intensions when we feel threatened? Things escalate fast!
05/17/03 at 18:07:03
Re: Aggression Ladder
Hi Tony, I wouldn't -- I think this is what you were getting at too. My aggression level ladder might have two and a half rungs.
1. Loud aggressive threatening language -- I should probably be aware that this might be a threat.
1 1/2. Anything that even remotely looks like a push or poke that I have the luck to be able to see, I would most probably attack them right then.
2. They have touched me in any unwelcomed manner that could possably have caused me harm - they will be attacked by me. However if they are armed or if I feel that I would be defeated for another reason, escape would be a good tactic to follow.
05/19/03 at 02:29:11
Re: Aggression Ladder Matt Kovsky
My ladder would have only one rung. If ANYTHING appears threatening, I'm out of there. You never know who you're dealing with. I was verbally and physically assaulted once out of nowhere by a punk half my size for no reason. I was about to crack his head open when a friend of mine interceded who knew the kid's brother and cooled him out. I said to my friend "what did you do that for?", and he told me that he heard that the punk had just acquired a pistol and was showing it off to other people saying he couldn't wait to try it out on someone.
Now if I had no place to run or had someone to defend and they're verbally abusive to the point where i fear for my physical (not my vanity's) safety within my PCZ (personal comfort zone or as far as you can reach), I attack the attacker and that's it.
05/19/03 at 09:21:03
Re: Aggression Ladder Andre' Winter
My opinion is to sense a knowing when not to be somewhere , to not be near the ladder to climb . Of course we also know that this may not always be the case but something to keep in mind. Lets say we are in a a bar , we know the guy has a gun , befriend him, buy him a drink, excuse yourself to the bathroom, and leave the joint. "Gifts" with a healthy dose of humility go a long way in the Art of War .
05/19/03 at 22:03:47
Re: Aggression Ladder Major Al
Regarding the aggression ladder I saw this same article in “Black Belt” magazine. The only thing I can say is that while it is logical to have some form of “Aggression Ladder” in your mind, real world situations have too much ambiguity and there are too many steps in this concept for the brain to process in the split second you have to be reactive and move like the wind. The point is you just don't know what's in another person's head. The guy who seems nice to you may turn out to be a serial murder and rapist ala “John Wayne Gacie” or “Ted Bundy.”
We teach a similar concept known as the “Sphere of Influence.” The first level is your awareness, which should always be up but not heightened to a level where you become paranoid. Awareness is based upon your intuition and your visual and perceptual skills, in other words if you think something is wrong, it probably is. The next level or layer is the actual sphere, which extends from the center of your body to the striking limit of your hands and feet. I say striking limit because the extension you have for striking is slightly less that the maximum extension of your limbs, this ensures you are always able to strike with power.
But here's the big difference in our concept, if someone “suddenly enters” your sphere or causes you to feel threatened under any circumstances, you are free to take their head off. While this sounds crude it's the only logical response given the often ambiguous and suddenness of the type of situation people find themselves in when face with an attacker hell bent on their destruction.
05/22/03 at 14:23:22
Re: Aggression Ladder wmpm
Hello all -'specially the NYC 14th street crew. I'm Suffering from a bit of insommnia and I thought I'd check out the site.
Regarding the aggression ladder, I feel that potential danger should never be thought of in "levels". The situation's either harmless, potentially spotty, or barrelling strait down at you. There are guys out there who are REALLY good at the sucker punch thing, but even then it is still very possible to get that "spider sense" from them and know enough to walk away or be ready when the sucker punch does indeed come. I realize how debatable this is, but I KNOW from experience that Ki Chuan Do's sensitivity training upgrades the natural ability to tell me which to choose; fight or flight.
To touch off on what Andre said, a good bit of humor in a bad situation can go a helluva long way. If your relaxed enough to crack a stupid joke, your relaxed enough to bounce a nice palm to the chin. You can literally win a mental battle simply by being calm, respectful, and apparently ready for the "bad guy". He'll walk off, either quietly or muttering, either truly scared at the disturbing display of confidence, or simply feeling your not worth the trouble. Best of all, this can be perceived by you, and if your walking home with that special lady, you've just increased your chances of getting lucky fella!
And if he doesn't walk away...well, like I said, you'll be relaxed enough for that nice palm strike to the chin.
06/02/03 at 04:07:22
Some thoughts from Sun Tzu Tony LoCasto
Sun Tzu was the Chinese tactician and military adviser to the Chou emperors, 500 B.C. I believe his words still apply to today's modern martial arts.
All warfare is based on deception. When able to attack, we must seem unable: when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must have the enemy believe we are far away; when far away we must make him believe we are near. Hold out the bait; entice the enemy. Feign disorder and crush him. Sun Tzu
I am interested in how you intrepid of Sun Tzu's words and do you still believe his words ring true today?
05/19/03 at 22:51:07
Re: Some thoughts from Sun Tzu Major Al
Sun Tzu, from a philosophical standpoint was a genius when it came to understanding the true nature of warfare and his timeless concepts are every bit as applicable today as they were over 2,000 years ago. His writings are required reading at every Field Grade Officer and General Staff level military school around the world. Combat is fluid, ever changing and dynamic not rigid or static, it is chaotic and full of surprises which requires that nothing be taken for granted of left to chance, something Sun Tzu clearly understood. Unfortunately to many people both in the military and the martial arts have forgotten his sage advice and teachings and have opted to listen to the pied pipers of folly and destruction. The best versions of this ancient translation is “The Art of War,” by Sun Tzu, Ralph D. Sawyer and “The Art of War,” by Samuel B. Griffith.
05/22/03 at 14:49:20
Sport Specific Strength Training ed
I've lifted weights for some time now but since begining my training with Ki Chuan Do have found my body tight and fighting itself. I was much more flexible when I just played b-ball. I was thinking of purchasing one of those "total gym 1000's" that you see Chuck Norris pushing in those infomercials. It seems to yield supple "useful" muscle strength over a greater range of motion. I know that it uses the same principals as "Pilates" which is proven to work. I've seen them on Ebay for a song. Is there anyone who has used one or can give me some input as what to do to increase my strength, flexibility and range of motion. I love lifting but need something that doesn't bind me up. ed
05/21/03 at 16:04:52
Re: Sport Specific Strength Training John Perkins
I have used the total gym myself and have found it to be a good adjunct to most physical training. If you use weight training it may slow you up temporarily while learning KCD but if you stretch well before and after weight training you should be fine. Remember although we do not rely on strength there may come a time when you may not have any other opening and sometimes a good powerful push can help. I do recommend, however, that if you are interested in developing maximum fighting strength that you use the dynamic contraction methods that I teach. That is the method I use for increasing ligament and tendon strength and why I can manipulate many of the weight lifters at the gym a few of which bench 500 pounds. If you need more info contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org Good luck, JP
05/22/03 at 07:42:09
Questions and answers about KCD solo drills... Matt Kovsky
Been trying out some of the drills in AP last one week. I have tried
Anywhere Striking, Hula, Turning, Solo Contact Flow, Swimming, Body Writing, Polishing the Sphere and Washing the Body.
Here are some of questions:
1. Sometimes my hands get "entangled" when I strike too fast when
practicing Anywhere Strikes. Is this normal?
I assume you're doing the advanced Anywhere drill with multi-strikes. I haven't heard of entanglement being a problem before, but here's how to prevent it. As emphasized in Tai chi, you want to clearly separate the Yin from the Yang. In English, separate your upward from downward strikes, your lefts from your rights, strikes moving inwards and strikes moving outwards, etc. Keep transferring your weight from leg to leg as you strike, like a tennis player changing from a backhand to a forehand shot, or a right handed batter suddenly switch-hitting to lefty and back again. Also, develop your sensitivity (read the sensitivity and contact flow chapters) so that you pocket and yield your body and limbs out of the way of each other as your arms snake around so they don't entangle.
2. Is Turning drill similar to Psycho Chimp drill? Same objectives, right?
Turning drill is just a very simplified exercise to get you to transfer your weight completely from leg to leg as your upper body and arms loosely turn and swing from the momentum. The Psycho-chimp requires (as in entanglement question above) Sensitivity so you don't hit yourself at high speed while you maintain weight transfer and looseness at high speed like a mongoose.
3. How come my legs get so tired after practicing Body Writing, Polishing
the Sphere and Washing the Body? It's as if I have run a marathon race.
As we intended, you are using important balance and stabilization muscles that are vital for fighting but are rarely if ever trained properly. The fatigue is a good thing.
> If i have to keep my hands "loose" then I must use my hips & legs or lower
> body, right? Am I moving too fast?
Hard to know how fast you're moving; just remember that all power comes from the legs and your connection to the ground and weight transfers. Think of your legs as being the handle of a whip: the motion becomes amplified and accelerated as the power wave flows to the the tip of the whip (your hands). This is where the power of your strikes come from (read Dropping chapter).
> 4. How long do you recommend I practice all these drills daily, bearing in
> mind I have very limited time or sometimes too tired from work.
Frequency is very important, but you only have to do each exercise for less than 5 minutes each.
More than that can damage tendons.
> 5. Will I see any positive effects on my next Karate sparring?
Because most karate sparring is sportive and has definite rules of engagement, it doesn't allow true "play" (like when you were a little kid play-fighting and wrestling with friends) so it is questionable how many attributes can be brought to bear. Karate in general lacks true infighting development, where most real combat takes place. Any good wrestler will demolish most blackbelts: they'll take a shot and then crush you and pop your arms out of their sockets (As Gene Labelle did to Bruce Lee). You need to find like-minded and trustworthy training partners where anything goes (other than ripping out throats and drawing blood!) so you can freely apply all Ki Chuan Do principles.
> 6. What is a balance board? Where can I buy one?
Save your money! Go to a Home Depot and get a 4 foot long 2x4. Roll up some newspaper into 2 balls and duct tape them to both ends of one side of a board. All you're trying to do is make an unstable surface to stand on, like a Canadian logroller. The bigger the wads of paper, the more unstable the board is when your try to balance on it.
Great questions and good luck with your training!
06/08/03 at 08:53:49
The Pre-emptive strike John Perkins
There are many out there who have learned serious CQB (close quarters battle) techniques. Along with the proper physical training you must learn the right mind set for fighting. I have over the years come across many instructors classes, videos, books etc. which deal with the pre-emptive strike. This a Military concept which has been used for centuries. Basically it is the method used by the German army in WW2. You attack before the enemy does. In a street confrontation you would apply this concept a bit differently. If you read any of Prof. Bradley J. Steiner's works you will come across his ATTACK the ATTACKER concept. Basically, if you are approached by someone who you perceive is about to harm you and you have no other choice you get off your stuff immediately. There is no time to block an attack so If you are mentally prepared you will explode instantly into your opponent with well aimed strikes to the most accessible and vulnerable parts of his anatomy giving him no time to react to you. You have actually taken the initiative and caused him to have to play catch up. There are circulating letters about mysterious fighting ability which uses all sorts of terminology designed to sell you seminars and tapes using this concept. They fail to tell you many of the complications which could cause you to get killed in the wrong circumstances. Many of these writer/teachers have served in the military so it would lend undue credence to their pontifications. Remember most military members including many spec. ops. never had a chance to fight hand to hand. If they did it would usually be considered a failure on their part to use the many weapons and options at hand. You must look into the background of the person teaching and make a critical assesment about them based on what they can actually can do. Read KILL OR GET KILLED or go to the contacts page and contact Prof. Steiner. You could also read ATTACKPROOF or attend the upcomming seminar which will be given by Major Ridenhour in New Jersey (SEE EVENTS PAGE) this month. Don't be fooled by people disguising the pre-emptive strike methods as some secret scientific cool stuff. They could call it anything like focal point fighting, scientific sucker punches, whack em first. Most of these guys pander to the wannabes of the world. Yes you can learn some deadly techniques from some very qualified teachers. These will be taught in the best light that they can show it through to MAKE it work. Remember the Guided Chaos principles are used to work against even the attacks from the military CQB trained men. If you need proof as a student or an instructor of CQB or any martial art contact me at one or my classes or make an appointment to see me in person. You can reach me at email@example.com. I can also give you the contact info. for some real tried and true super fighting CQB instructors who have not trained with me and are virtual buzz saws. Good luck, John Perkins
06/13/03 at 07:55:08
Re: The Pre-emptive strike Inquiring Mind
I am interested in learning some style of martial arts. I took Kenpo for a little over a year when I was younger but did not feel like I was benefiting. I am presently trying to find a school to attend. I do not live in NY and it doesn't look like you have any schools outside of NY. My question is what is a good way to choose a school and/or Instructor. What are some of the questions I should be asking them and how do I know if they are being honest? I see a lot of instructors say the same thing about their style that they teach realistic self defense techniques but no instructor would be honest or should I say stupid enough to say that their style is useless in an actual street brawl. If you have some experience in the martial arts then you can wade through most b_ _ _ s_ _ _ _ but if not you may not know what to actually look for in an instructor.
I would appreciate any suggestions that you may have.
06/13/03 at 15:09:08
Re: The Pre-emptive strike John Perkins
To answer the question of Mr./Ms. Inquiring mind. I will go out on a limb here and offer anyone who wants to know if a particular instructor is a serious and qualified fighting instructor this: If you can send me a name and contact information of a teacher I will personally try to interview them to see what their philosophy is about real combat and get some direct information on their background. If you are a beginner or long time practitioner of martial arts you may not be able to discern what it takes to be a true combat master. I could post some guidelines but after years of experience I have found that it is too easy to fake people out. Some of the most gullible are the martial artists who have spent years under the hypnosis of some "masters". Thank you, John Perkins
06/14/03 at 07:21:02
Re: The Pre-emptive strike
I'll second John's response to Inquiring Mind. I have seen countless books and websites that sound great -- at times just like us in fact -- and then worked out with the very people touting they can do the stuff that works. Almost all of them can't. Good luck in your search and with Master Perkins helping you find a teacher you may get lucky.
06/17/03 at 18:15:17
KICK BUT AMERICA ! John Perkins
Recently, I was having a discussion with one of my professional shoot fighters. He has fought dozens of UFC style fights and has won most by knockout. He looked over our website and said that it was too intelectual and lacked PUNCH. He stated that we should emphasize the fact that I and some of our instructors have real world experience. He stated that myself having been in over 100 bloodbaths should be emphasized. He stated that we should be vigorously knocking on the doors of our military and police to teach them the CQB methodology of KCD. He stated that America is laughed at by other countries as far as hand to hand combat is concerned. They see us as weak. Question: Should Attack Proof Inc. go out there and give a psychological body slam to our people. Wake them up to the fact that the U.S.A. does not have the best fightining for close combat and that we should go out there and educate our people about the most devastating fightind system on earth? Should we uncover the bullcrap out there that poses as real fighting? Give me some feedback folks. Thanks, a once patient master
06/14/03 at 06:54:45
Re: KICK BUT AMERICA ! Dave Bell
You know me, John: I'd fully support such an endeavour, especially regarding training military and law-enforcement personnel.
But to be honest, I don't think the majority of the American public cares for self-defense, close-combat, etc. We are a complacent society, driven, it seems nowadays, by fast food, the Internet, and easy living, but I'd assume it's this way for most industrialized/non-third world countries (France, Germany, England, etc). It takes big wakeup calls to really make people realize and understand that someday, it's their very lives that may be at stake, or the lives of loved ones. And the image of the American people as weak is further driven along by the rising unathletic/obesity rate in the USA, now spreading rapidly amongst children in their early years, in my honest opinion.
06/14/03 at 11:50:12
Re: KICK BUT AMERICA ! Dave Bell
I guess my main point boils down to this quote by George Orwell: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
06/14/03 at 11:52:17
Re: KICK BUT AMERICA ! Major Al
Man I've got to get back in the loop here. Anyway, I can fully attest to what John's friend said that most of the rest of the world find us “soft” and weak especially with regard to self-defense training and fighting.
While we kid ourselves with “Bull jitsu” and other forms of fantasy fighting, our allies as well as our enemies are laughing at us. Yes laughing! Our obsession with cool looking techniques and all this high speed gear that serves as more of a hindrance to our mobility than protects us, has become the stuff of much late night camp fire satire amongst our allies and enemies alike.
I had the opportunity to see the al Qaeda training manual and I can tell you that there is absolutely no BS in their training. Their training is well thought out, well organized and highly effective. There are no corny techniques and impossible wristlocks or throws. Everything they teach is an assassination technique and all of their strikes focus on the neck and above, in other words all they do is headhunt. The irony is, is that it all comes from stuff found in many of the older military fighting manuals that use to be the standard within the US armed forces. There is nothing original about anything they do. The difference is they know what's real and what's crap and don't waste their time with the crap.
As for building up the art one of the reasons why I personally believe it is difficult for us to attract more students, (besides properly marketing the art) is that this stuff “really scares” people. This art truly cuts to the core of who people are, because you can't fake it, and all of your trophies, certificates and sashes mean nothing if you can't deliver the goods.
When I was recalled to active duty I ran numerous training courses and seminars for free for any Marine, Sailor or Soldier who wanted to train. While these classes began to become popular I would have to say that for every student I had there were at least two to three others who had tried it out, recognized its value, but decided not to continue training for various reasons.
I would have guys come up to me all of the time, mostly officers, expressing the desire to get involved in some form of training with me, but they always seemed to have an excuse for not doing so. Much of this had to do with their egos especially amongst the officers.
These officers just couldn't accept that many of the Sergeants and Corporals who had trained with me in the principles of Ki Chuan Do, if they so desired could seriously ruin their day. So instead of humbling themselves so that they could learn something that was real and that could possibly save their lives, they chose to place their heads in the sand. It's sad but true…
I also agree that we need to develop a more aggressive marketing strategy, which emphasizes the combative aspects of the art. It's simple, those who want the real thing will come once they know it's out their and available for the taking, those who do not will continue to kid themselves by placing their heads in the sand.
As for changing the content of the website I agree with Mike that you can have a balance with the intellectual side as well as the combative side, however, we must do so while emphasizing the combative nature of the art of Ki Chuan Do.
GUNPLAY John Perkins
I am not sure that most of my students know that one of my most developed area of skill is in the use of firearms, particularly handguns. Some of my work has been published in various shooting magazines. I state this as a set up for this question/statement. For many years I have taught hundreds of people how to shoot. Most do very well once the handgun is in hand. The big problem lies in the fact that most shooters don't know how to get to their sidearm during a sudden attack. This has been proven to them countless times. Many handgun carriers state to me that they sill "read" a situation beforehand and have their stuff ready. ARE SHOOTERS ABLE TO PERCEIVE THE FUTURE? I know that they mean that they will spot trouble before it starts. This I hope is true. Even after I prove to them that they will be at the mercy of the serious attacker some will ignore what I show them. Can anyone out there shed some light on this subject of ignoring the obvious? All help would be appreciated. Maybe my head is in the clouds. Thanx the semi-humble one
06/16/03 at 05:54:07
Re: GUNPLAY Kevin
Since I have been training with you I have come to truly realize and appreciate some of my strong points, weak points, and limitations. By accepting those facts it allows me to strive to improve in all of those areas. Especially my limitations (i.e physical). As the old saying goes "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him/her (politically correct) drink it.
So I say to you John that "to thy own self be true". You have a gift that you have generously decided to share with the world. So anyone that is fortunate enough to be exposed to your teachings but refuse to accept it then you fulfilled your role and don't be bothered or spend too much time in trying to figure out the mind of megalomaniacs.
I always figured that the world was made up of 4 types of people:
1. Those that can listen to advice and examine the information and can honestly compare it to themselves (self evaluation
2. Those that listen but are a little hard headed so they have to experience it for themselves and eventually learn
3. Those that listen but never learn (they always feel they know better)
4. Those that never listen
These 4 areas can be used to describe people in a worldwide of areas. Unfortunately, when you are dealing in areas of life and death, you may not get another chance if you fall into category 2,3, and 4.
OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM.... carl
I recently had a great opportunity to flow hands w/ a tai-chi master down in chinatown NYC. It was great because not only did he show me a fantastic level of skill, but I also learned later by his lecture to his class (which was free for me) and by reading his website that his 300 year old art had esentially the same core beliefs that our school has, ie sensitivity, balance, chaos observation, the question of neccessary speed, and the limitation of forms.
He said one thing that, at the time, I agreed with, but much later I felt was wrong. By his observation of our slow "match", he said that our art is mainly an aggressive, offensive art. Granted, there are many of us that would easily agree with that as well given our priorities of mental awareness and and our methods of "engagement prone" training, but I have experiences to dispel that notion. One that happened recently comes to mind.
About a month ago, I had been walking in the Village NYC very late at night, just after having fun with a few friends, so I was in a good mood. I walked past a man, and suddenly felt him move behind me. I turned around and somehow found myself easily blocking an overhand hook punch, grabbing his wrist, and pulling him off balance. In less then a second, I was able to register all the information I needed, which, was that I didn't even need to hit him. He was bigger then me, but he was completely drugged up and off balance. I could've pounded on him like Roseanne Barr jumping on a Twinkie. He was so drugged up in fact, that he even began crying and praying as I put my hand on his chest and pushed him backwards a few feet. He started pleading with me, and I told him in the most vulgar way possible to turn around and walk away before I beat the crack out of him.
The bottom line? I physically blocked and controlled a sucker punch without so much as having a defensive posture, I controlled the attaker, and in a tiny moment decided he wasn't even a threat, thus my ordering him to escape.
If THAT sounds like the workings of an aggresive, offensively oriented "style", then paint a mustache on my face and call me Hitler!
06/18/03 at 00:03:56
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM....
Many times when bouncing I have had big opportunities to kick the sh*t out of people who attacked me while I was asking them to leave. Granted unlike your instance I saw all of them coming. They too were so easily subdued and no need for further attack or violence was necessary. You could feel them submit right away. Our level of skill due to the way John teaches the sensitivity training makes us almost have a sixth sense. After contact begins or sometimes even before they can perceive – even when flying high – that the animal they face can destroy them and they cower. So nice of you not to bounce his head off of the concrete Carl.
06/18/03 at 00:43:52
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM.... Kevin
Have you had the opportunity to practice contact flow or push hands with those two masters and if so what was your assessment of their style versus KCD?
You proved the example of what John always says about giving you the Louisivlle Slugger in case you need it. Also the fact that you have developed the mental awareness to make an immediate threat assessment that determined that your attacker was no longer a threat. I commend you on your mercy. However, I'm sure that in the split second that you determined that the aggressor was no longer a threat if he had reversed himself and decised he was going to challenge you then you would have solved his problem for him (at least his problem with attacking strangers for no reason). So the compassion that you displayed toward him really has no bearing on the agressiveness of KCD. That was the decision that you made. Another student might have decided to teach him a lesson or who knows he might have caught you on a good night. It's possible that if he tried that when you were really having a bad day or week you might have displayed more aggression.
06/18/03 at 14:41:31
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM.... JP
Good work Carl. To set the record straight KCD is defensive and can be extremely offensive. During my career as a Police Officer I had many occasions to use the yang aspects of the art. This was when there were multiple assailants. These incidents usually happened in the most chaotic conditions. Many people will attempt to show their superiority by stating that KCD is too aggressive. My answer to that is this. When an attack happens against yourself or a loved one or your radio car partner or your soldier buddy should you stand in a ready stance and wait for the enemy to create the stage for the impending combat? Sometimes you must set the tone instantly. Many times this has allowed me to use less force because I was in more control than if I had to play catch up. There were many times that I did not have to shoot some assailants because I pre-empted the action. Don't be confused by someone trying to define KCD. I know many friends who are highly evolved in Tai Chi Chuan. Some are monks while others are grand masters. None of them are Cops or Soldiers. None of them judge KCD negatively. I am sure that the gentleman who you rolled hands with did not mean to use the word aggressive negatively. I am proud of the way you handled the street thug and I know that you have had many rough experiences working as a night club security specialist. Good luck, JP
06/18/03 at 18:25:30
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? Carl
Thanks for the feedback guys. I reread what I had written and wondered if it had sounded a bit boastful. I apologize if it seemed this way, and let me assure all those who read it that this is not my intention. For the record, I now sort of wonder if letting that guy walk away was such a good idea; I may have just sent him looking for an easier target to get "fix money".
To be quite honest, I actually like to tell of these experiences because I want to convince other students, especially the beginners, that they are not wasting their time from all the training that other martial artist would probably call "useless". Sometimes it's hard to simply believe in a training methodology if you are completely unsure of it's usefulness, AND if it's not the norm. Every now and then I can look in a classmate's eyes and see they have a little doubt, which I can understand. So, while doing my best not to seem like a chest-beater, I like to tell them exactly why I KNOW this stuff works.
For Dave and all others interested, the guy I rolled hands with is named Sam Chin, and his website is http://www.iliqchuan.org/
If anything, you can read the history and feel a warm fuzzy knowing our mantras aren't insane, but something ingeniously conceived long before our time.
06/19/03 at 00:16:30
Re: OFFENSIVE ART? HMMM.... JP
Remember folks that many of the concepts of KCD are rooted in my training in combat tai chi. I have trained since summer 1971 with Doc Miller who introduced me to Grand Master Waysun Liao in Chicago. His text on The TAI CHI CLASSICS is a mainstay of many KCD concepts. If anyone wants to visit Grand Master Liao we are planning to hold a large seminar this October in Chicago at the Degerberg Academy with the aid of Doc Miller who is a Tai Chi master and who keeps me on my toes in this regard. I also roll hands with a few other Tai Chi Chuan masters just to keep Kosher. There is nothing new under the sun. It is the blending of cultures of combat along with serious life experience of myself and many of our students and teachers that brings about KCD. Many Tai Chi purists don'thave a clue about KCD. If you only roll hands on their terms they and you will not get the intrinsic flow and dynamics of KCD when applied realistically. Again there is nothing new under the sun but there are many shadows out there to penetrate. Good hunting. JP
06/19/03 at 04:37:53
Ground fighting Tony LoCasto
This is an opening statement I read in a popular martial arts publication this month. I am interested in your opinions on ground fighting. I was very impressed with the teaching of groundwork at a resent seminar at the Bellerose location with Master Perkins and his instructors.
The ground is the last place you want to be during a real fight. If you end up down there, it usually indicates that your stand-up battle plan had a catastrophic failure.
Re: Ground fighting JP
If you want to see a good example of why it is not a good idea to go to the ground in a real street fight just get the video Menace 2 Society. It is a great movie depicting gang life in L.A. you will notice that once a person is taken to the ground he will be stomped to mush in seconds. This begs the question, "how do I not go to the ground in a fight?". The answer is a bit complicated. First of all you must treat all street altercations as potential assasination attempts. If you are merely dealing with a push-shove situation use your head and leave. Watch behind you while you make your exit. When I was in high school it was in vogue to have some hoods surround you while one faced you and made like he was going to fight you man to man. The usual move, however, was to dive at your ankles and lift your feet off the ground hoping to crack your head on same. The group around you would immediately proceed to kick, punch and do full body slams onto you. The best defense that I found was as soon as I realized that a party was about to begin I would instantly begin drop stepping forward directly into my antagonist while simultaneously chopping downward onto the side of his neck and kneeing low into his chest or face, whichever presented itself first as he dove for my ankles. At almost the same instant I would launch into what we refer to as the Mexican Hat Dance.(see ATTACK PROOF for directions) If for some reason I happened to land on the ground all hell would break loose. Using the methods of Native American ground fighting I would open up some space for myself to escape or put my knife or other weapon into action if need be. If you go to the ground with someone in the street you don't have to follow any rules. A good hard poke in the eye, a bite to the neck or any fleshy area could help you quickly. If it is a life and death fight poke through the eye into the brain. This is extremely effective against a grappling attack. Most of my personal experience has been in the streets, hallways of tenement houses, living rooms, etc. and usually weapons and multiple assailants were the norm. I was at a distinct disadvantage to civilians. It was incumbent on me as a police officer to keep the level of my attack limited as far as possible. As a civilian in New York State you are obliged to retreat, if possible, but I have found that juries will give a civilian under attack by multiple or armed assailants more leeway in their own defense. This may have a lot to do with our political climate today. Remember to train hard so that you will have more control in your own and your loved ones' defense. Luck JP
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts gavin sicks
I should point out that the great benefit of ki chuan do and john perkins, is that IF you follow johns advice to the "T." You will, like many other high ranking and extremely skilled instructors of this system, be able to (without any street experience) handle yourself as if youv been fighting in the streets for a life time. An experience is simply that. to improve you need a vivid memory and the accurate ability to analyze, train and discover. Johns intelligence is special to say the least. with less street experience than some of his students he has trained them how to do better and proved it, 1000 times over! YOU DONT HAVE TO GO THROUGH WHAT JOHN WENT THROUGH TO LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH IT. I hold this to no-other art ive ever seen.
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts Joe Martarano
I belive all three is a good source of information. What we do with it, it's up to the seeker.
The person who has fought in the ring has mental strength. The never give up attitude. The competive spirit. An I can attitude. A good work ethic.
The instructor with 30 years of martial arts experience, teaches us the way of the warrior. The martial artist trains both body & sprint. The martial artists only use force as a last resort. He is a man of peace with the ability to rage war when he needs to.
The person who has survived a good number of serious, violent street fights brings reality of combat to training. It gives us the ability to determine what will and not work.
The best source of information for close combat, is the person who combines the best from all three, and the ability to teach others what they have learned.
I have found that person in John Perkins, I am thankful for that.
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts michaelcoplon
I don't know if I can come up with anything that you haven't thouigh of already, but I'll give it a shot.
First my honest opinion. I am going to assume that there is no other information available to me other than there are three different instructors. One has 30 years of classical trainning. Another has some real experience surving violent street encounters. The third is a good sports fighter. I can only choose one to help me prepare for self defense, to fight for my life in situations that I cannot simply avoid by being nice or being assertive or some other means. These unsought, unwanted encounters could be against multiple attackers with weapons.
Without other information I would have to choose the teacher with the relevant real world experience. The other two might be great teachers, but what they teach could be all wrong. If they do not know how to convert their sport fighting or classical training into self defense training then what I learn from them could leave me in worse shape than if I had no trainning. And from the information given, there is no indication that they can convert what they teach into self defense. Even if the instructor with the real world experience turns out to be a poor teacher, at least he has some idea what to teach.
Now if I already knew a lot about fighting for my life, from first hand experience, I would try to find all of the best classical teachers and get raw material from them to make myself even better. I would have the knowledge to be able to pick and alter classical training to suit my needs. At one time many people actually fought for real, so they were able to easily gain things from quality classical training. Now most of us will not have to fight for our lives so we lack the real expeience that kind of cuts though all of the BS and fanatsies.
Some people substitute sport fightinmg experience for fighting for your life, but it doesn't take much thinking to realize that even Ultimate Fighting is very different than a real encounter. On the other hand, there is no question that sportfighting can help a person to learn to channel their fear into action even if it is the wrong type of action. It seems to me that sport fighting contests probably started out as training methods for warriors. What happened is they evolved into big money spectator sports where winning within the rules is the only goal. Once this Occurred these contest lost most of their value as trainning methods for self defense.
I will try to write more later and play Devil's Advocate
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial ar Virgil
Here's my two cents:
As a direct answer to the question, it takes 3 things:
1. An analytical mind with a fair amount of combat intelligence.
2. Enough combat trial and error, experience, experimentation to feed that mind.
3. The ability to put it all together in some form of training methodology so that someone else can benefit.
(hello to everyone from Nyack Fighting Arts)
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts John Perkins
Hi Virgil, glad to hear from you. For the information of anyone out there Virgil is the Master instructor for the Nyack Fighting Arts. He teaches in a very realistic manner and if you are looking for a superb stick, blade, and empty hand master it's Virgil. You can reach him at his web site www.NyackFightingArts.com
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts michaelcoplon
Again an honest answer. I am not yet ready to play Devils Advocate.
A good anology for the problems of tradional trainning can be seen in the American Civil War. Many of the leaders on both sides had studied and attempted to use the strategies and tactics of Napolean. The new weapons changed everything. Grant who did not do well at West Point (21st out of 39) did not have much invested in the old approaches. He did better than the others at learning from experience what would work. You all know what happened next. I imagine that military history is full of examples of over schooled leaders making big mistakes and leaders who learned from experience doing well.
But an even more accurate anology for many but not all tradionalist would be taking the most recent top of the class at West Point and immeadiately making her/him the head of the armed forces. For a sport fighting anology you could take someone who has done well at war games but hasn't been in battle and put them in charge. It sounds absurd and practically no one would take these inexperienced warriors and make them the head of the Armed forces. However traditionalist and sportfighters are sought out by even the police and army for advice on empty hand fighting. Is this because people with significant self defense experience are rare? Are there other reasons for this?
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts Michael Coplon
Time for a little devils advocate
The person with 30 years of martial arts experience is head and shoulders over the rest. The street fighter may be good, but it could all be genetics and natural attributes. Also we have no idea how much skill the people who he fought with possesed. Probably not that much since anyone with formal training would not get into street fights. Another important consideratio is that martail arts are like any other science. No matter how smart you are yo have to go to school to learn it. Even Albert Einstein couldn't just teach himself, he went to school and study for many years before he could make advancements in the physics.
As far as sport fighting goes, it just isn't as sophisticated as Karate, Judo, Ju Jitsu or Tai Chi Chuan. Look who one all of those Ultimate fights against bigger stonger opponents, Royce Gracie and he had years and years of classical trainning.
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts ed
At the risk of being cliche' something that has been reinforced to me through my short experience in Ki Chaun Do is just what I learned from "Mr.Miagai" in "The Karate Kid." Your mind is your greatest weapon and the best way to avoid being in hit is to not be there when the punch is thrown. If a martial art assists you in gaining inner peace and humility enough that you can sense and walk away, while giving you practical real world training, then it's done it's job. That person who has survived many violent encounters might just as well have walked away from whatever situation arose. Would that not have been better? It is always better to have and not need than to need and not have. Ki Chaun Do delivers both.
Re: Real fights vs. Ultimate fights vs. Martial arts Andre'
All of them. None of them.
Movement is a manifestation of thought. If we move forcefully and rigidly then this is how our mind is. If we move with grace and yeild if necessary -- and hit with respect, then this is how our mind is. If we are trying to defeat our training partners then this is how our mind is -- not focused on our own development. If these things are true that our mind makes us move as we do then our body reveals the way our mind works.To fight better is not always to develop as we do the aspects of looseness, balance, sensitivity, and power in the body, but also in the mind. No great warrior was only a great fighter they were known for their way.
Re: Development Hudson
Great post Dave ! Re: Developing the mind - I recently finished a book called "The Mental Edge" which discusses the value of mental training for athletes (at all levels) who want to reach their greatest potential. One of the primary techniques in the book (which I have yet to try on my own) is visualization. If anyone reading this uses visualization (or similar tools) as a regular part of training I would be interested (& grateful) to hear your experiences - what works/doesn't work for you, how much time you devote on a regular basis, the results you had, etc.
Re: Development Virgil
This is a good point and on one level it also brings to my mind the concept of the warrior's soul. A person who develops their mind, and by extension, their spirit or soul, is that person a better fighter than a person who does not do this? And, conversely, a person who knows his soul, is he at an advantage in terms of his physical art? I use the term better to refer to larger concepts of good and evil, right and wrong, morality, and not just the ability to defeat someone in battle.
Chi, "Iron body," Grappling and Reality
Chi, "Iron body," Grappling and Reality Major Al
QUESTION=Is iron body training any good? Also, I've heard incredible things about the SCARS system- how it is the most effective system in the world. I doubt this based on their complicated grappling.
While I haven't heard of this system I'm sure there are many similarities to Ki Chuan Do since much of what is in our system can be found in many ancient martial arts books such as "Tai Chi Classics by Master Waysun Liao," so many ofthe principles that we teach are not new per se. However, and I agree with your
skepticism, this business about "Iron Body" is utter nonsense, many people are fooled by this because they seek the "mystical" in their training rather than
what really works. They want to believe there is some super secret technique which makes them invincible with an average body. Who knows maybe the founders of this system can make some of this stuff work for them under controlled conditions [i.e., in martial arts demonstrations and other parlor tricks], but I
seriously doubt that the average student of their system can make it work under the chaotic conditions of a real fight.
I can tell you countless stories of some of my own father and uncles feats of strength, that seem like they come right out of a comic book. Things like punching and breaking liquor bottles without cutting their hands to cracking 2x4's with their bare hands. However, in no way does this imply that my dad or
uncles possess some form of mystical chi power. Besides these guy's wouldn't know Iron Body if it bit them on the rear end, and they probably think "chi" is
some form of French cuisine. These guy's were "corn fed-country bred" farm boys from western North Carolina who worked as laborers for most of their lives, and anyone who is familiar with this area of the country knows that such men raised in the 1940's and 50's are the norm rather than the exception.
As for SCARS, I've had an opportunity to see some of their videos and I agree with you, the over emphasis on complicated grappling techniques causes me to
seriously question the effectiveness of this system under real combat conditions. And their claims that SCARS is all that you need are ridiculous, the Gracie's use to make similar claims and as you have noticed as of late they have backed away from claiming that Gracie Ju Jitsu is the end all to be all. Even
though within Ki Chuan Do, we have had an opportunity to test our methods against various systems and against some of the most high level practitioners of
various arts, we do not set ourselves up as the end all to be all of martial artists. We understand that no matter what you know, including Ki Chuan Do, if
the bad guy gets the drop on you, then you are done! Remember that grappling does work "if they're not trying to kill you," and for sport/ultimate fighting
there's probably nothing better, but against people hell bent on your destruction it's a disaster waiting to happen. As with the Iron Body example
above, who knows maybe they can make some of this stuff work, but they obviously don't know the kind of psycho street killers that I know. The question I guess I
have for them is do you want to risk your life on such "iffy" techniques?
thanks for your questions.
Re: Chi, Virgil
I don't know much about Iron Body training except that the human body is tortured in ridiculous ways in order to perform feats of strength that seem impossible. However, I would like to relate an experience I had with full contact body training:
Many years ago I trained in a system of fighting called Kajukenbo. This is an American system that stresses full contact strikes and throws in it's training method. Class usually began with body conditioning that involved punching and kicking your partner and having your partner punch and kick you with as much force as he/she could muster to your torso, arms, and legs. Sometimes this was done blindfolded so that you could not see when you were going to be struck. The recipient would "Yatze" (like a Kiai) the strikes in order to train muscle tension control in the area being struck to prevent serious internal injury. We also did medicine ball training where a 25lb ball was thrown on your stomach at full force from 5 to 8 ft. above while you were lying on your back.
The purpose of this training was fourfold:
1. To develop the muscle integrity and the ability to control that integrity when struck in order to minimize pain and ward off injury.
2. To develop the sensitivity to apply 1 when needed.
3. To develop a feel for what it is like to hit at full power the human body (the person doing the striking gets trained too). Remember, he human body is not flat like a board, nor is it perfectly cylindrical like a heavy bag. Nor does it just hang there silently and unresponsively - I've come to understand the term "kicking the sh*t" out of someone" as it applied literally in Kajukenbo.
4. To develop the mental fortitude to ignore the pain, dizziness, nausea from being hit hard so that the mind can focus on other things, like (hopefully) counterattacking, evading, or whatever your game plan is.
Now, I've been in a couple of situations where i'd have to say that this training helped me immensely. The flip side is that, 20 years later, my body is feeling the punishment. Looking back, if I knew then what I know now, I would not do this kind of training.
With regard to mystical powers, I was at a Hsing-I demo once where I was the "dummy" being demoed on. The demonstrator, a well respected Hsing-I person, had me face a wall so that I couldn't see behind me. A few minutes later i felt someone touch the back of my head. I turned to see the Hsing-I person. Only thing is, he was standing 20 feet away. Now, i am the last person to believe in mystical powers, magic, supernatural forces, etc., but, this is an event that is wholely unexplained in my mind.
Re: Chi, Ken
Hello fellas, I'm a SCARS practitioner myself. Been at it since 1998 so I basically know the system pretty well. During the time I trained in SCARS I literally looked at 100s of systems and styles to fill what I percieved to be some gaps in my SCARS training. I knew what they were but no one out there seemed to have the answers.
Enter Attack Proof. I saw the book at the bookstore, went through it and put it down because looking at the pictures it looked like another self defense book for average beginners who didn't understand the meaning of a killing system. Well, I was wrong. I just so happened to look through the book another time and I noticed that some of your wrist escapes were identical to some principles taught in SCARS Compression groundfighting. I also noticed how close you all were to your attackers, in SCARS the principle of jamming your attackers limbs(arms and legs) and fighting chest to chest is one of the key elements. My biggest complaint with SCARS however was its stressing upon applying strikes and then leverages to attacker's punches. I also got the impression that they greatly underestimate the speed and intelligence of attackers. I read through Attack Proof and I realized without doubt that this was the system I'd been searching for. It seemed so applicable to actual full speed, chaotic, bodies flying everywhere fights.
I say all of that to let you all understand that I'm not some zealot(tons of them exist) that trains in SCARS and believes its the absolute undefeatable pinnacle. Even though its probably one of the top 3 systems I've seen for really fast and efficient street fighting, it still has flaws. But my question to you all is this. When you say SCARS is filled with complicated grappling, what do you mean by that? Are you speaking about Gracie style Ju Jitsu ground locks/leverages and such or are you speaking about the Aikido style standing wrist leverages and throws? The reason I ask is because I'm 100% sure that SCARS doesn't teach any resemblance to Gracie style Ju Jitsu. In fact they stress that you should never fear going to the ground but that you should never stay on the ground fighting the way they do in competition because in war you can be stomped or bludgeoned to death by a shovel. I'm just making sure we're on the same page guys because if you're speaking about the Aikido type actions I completely agree that stuff is absolute unrealistic nonsense. Unfortunately, SCARS is filled with a lot of this lunacy even though I feel the good outweighs the bad.
The only thing that kind of has me mystified is the idea of the no inch punch. Maybe my training has brainwashed me but how can dropping with no real penetration stop an attacker? In SCARS we are taught to penetrate 6-12 inches to affect an attacker's nerves, organs and bones combined with an offensive mindset so that the attacker can't roll off the strikes. All of this can be performed practically chest to chest because you're constantly using rotational strikes. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't see a no inch punch actually dropping someone with the same type of efficiency as the SCARS strikes. Keep in mind that I'm brand new to this system so I may very possibly be missing something very obvious. Which leads to my next set of question. What tapes should I order and are there any redundancies in the videos? I can't wait to start training with you guys.
WHY YOU MIGHT NEED SELF DEFENSE! Matt Kovsky
Street attack stuns visiting doctors
Psychiatrists at S.F. convention get dose of reality on streets
Katherine Seligman, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, May 23, 2003
Members of the nation's largest psychiatric association discovered San
Francisco's mentally ill homeless problem up close this week, as they stepped
out of their annual convention and were surprised -- some say shocked -- by the
legions of people living on the street.
The worst, however, came when an official of the American Psychiatric
Association, a Baltimore doctor known for being an advocate for the indigent
mentally ill, was assaulted by an apparently homeless man with a history of
Knocked unconscious by the seemingly random attack near Union Square on Sunday
morning, the doctor spent the week recovering at San Francisco General Hospital.
Dr. Geetha Jayaram, an associate professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins
University School of Medicine and the scientific program committee chairwoman of
the psychiatric association, is expected to be released soon.
Police arrested Aaron Matthew Hull, 32, who has no local address and has a
history of being detained for psychiatric evaluations, according to law
enforcement sources. He was being held in the county jail on two felony counts
of assault and battery and is scheduled to appear in court today to determine if
he is competent to face charges.
The irony of the attack was not lost on the association's members and other
convention goers, many of whom said that they'd been noting the large numbers of
homeless people on the streets ever since they arrived Saturday.
"It's kind of shocking," said James McNulty, head of the National Alliance for
the Mentally Ill. "I've been walking around the hotels and up the hill to
Fisherman's Wharf. It was very disheartening."
Long before the attack happened, the APA had planned a news conference Wednesday
to publicize past and future threatened cuts to what the group's leaders called
the nation's "crumbling mental health system." More than 27 million people with
mental health problems are facing "personal health care disasters," they said,
because of Medicaid and state funding cuts to mental health programs.
"Imagine what it would be like to have heart disease and be told, 'Sorry, there
is a budget crisis, we can't afford your beta blockers,' " McNulty said at the
news conference. "Can you imagine the outcry?"
McNulty, who lives in Omaha, said that he had "never seen greater contrast
between degradation and great wealth. If you think things are bad in San
Francisco now, wait until the cuts happen. And I'm not just talking like Chicken
Jayaram had come to the convention, which drew about 19,000 participants, to
speak, among other topics, about outreach to indigent mentally ill people in
Her husband, Jay Kumar, said his wife is "doing better but not 100 percent right
'TALKING TO HIMSELF'
He said he had been walking with her Sunday morning when he saw a man "talking
to himself and eating" as he paced on a sidewalk near Post and Grant streets.
Police said witnesses told them the suspect was making loud comments and yelling
at Jayaram and her companions. Kumar said the suspect passed them and was about
20 to 30 yards away when he suddenly approached Jayaram from behind and struck
her. Kumar said he did not know if the assailant used his fist or a weapon.
Someone at the scene called 911, and Hull was arrested a short time later.
Kumar said he was concerned that so many people who appear to need mental health
treatment are wandering around the streets in San Francisco -- although he said
he did not know anything about Hull's background.
"I don't think proper treatment is being given to these people," said Kumar, who
is not a psychiatrist. "As far as I'm concerned, it's a scary situation."
Mental health advocates and psychiatrists cautioned against stereotyping the
mentally ill, saying that although they are more likely to be homeless, most
aren't violent. But advocates also warned that budget cuts may only exacerbate
what violence does occur.
CUTS IN HOUSING, TREATMENT
"You have the federal governments cutting housing and the state cutting
treatment, and you end up with all these mentally ill people on the street,"
said Paul Boden, head of the Coalition on Homelessness. "You have all these
people wandering around with no housing or treatment."
P.J. Johnston, a spokesman for Mayor Willie Brown, said the city is faced with a
"vexing paradox" because it was inundated with people seeking mental health
treatment "partly as a result of the fact that we do more than anyone else" to
"If you add to that the abandonment by the state and federal agencies that
traditionally help people with mental health issues, you see that San Francisco
is in a difficult position," he said.
Some psychiatrists at the meeting said they were dismayed when they walked
around their hotels and the Union Square area. Inside, they attended the
hundreds of meetings on new drug therapies and scientific advancement in
treatment. But outside, they couldn't help noticing the population they have
dedicated their careers to helping.
"It's ironic to see the number of homeless mentally ill on the streets here,"
said John Kane, a psychiatrist at Hillside Hospital in New York, moments after
attending a symposium that discussed the relative merits of a new generation of
anti-psychotic drugs. "It's striking, and I'm from New York."
Re: WHY YOU MIGHT NEED SELF DEFENSE! JP
If you look in the book ATTACK PROOF and read the story about Mike the sailor you will find that this situation with the mentally ill is not new. It may get worse. After years working security at a Psychiatric institute Mark K. could give you some insight into what can happen when the meds are not enough. You could also talk or Email Gavin P. for direct hands on information on serious violent attacks while working in a Mental facility. You want to talk about chaos, blood on the floor and walls, broken bones? KCD allowed these men to control situations where less trained people would have to rely on the delicate ministrations of the police. That is if they could access a phone or other help. Want to talk about paper work? Enough said. JP
I've asked Major Al about this but would appreciate any additional feedback.
KCD follows a long tradition of training with looseness and relaxation. Most of the "internal" arts stress the same thing. No problem.
And I think it is clear to anyone who tests it that you can hit harder and faster more relaxed than if you are more tense. No problem.
The question I have been wrestling with is what happens when you get into a REAL kill or be killed situation and the so-called "fight or flight response" kicks in.
The medical people are saying that this flood of chemicals shuts OFF your ability to DO a more relaxed action. They say you CAN'T relax.
My own experiences seem to reinforce this but I don't know everything.
It is pretty pointless to train for relaxation if when the rubber hits the road you CAN'T do it.
I would appreciate any feedback on this issue.
Thanks for any suggestions, examples - shoot, even med journal articles if you know any!
By the way, great work guys! Attackproof is really looking good!
Re: Relaxation Matt Kovsky
Great questions! I think the problem lies with the definition of relaxation. Even the tai chi classics say that relaxation does not mean becoming like limp lomein noodles. It is idealized instead as a coiling, springy, whip-like, ferocious relaxation. Pick up an alley cat by the scruff of the neck (if you can!) and smack it a few times. Notice the flesh ripped from your body. Notice how it twisted out of your grasp despite the fact you have 10 times the strength of a 15 pound cat. This is what we're talking about. What is often referred to as "the classical mess" is when the mind is trained to fight like a martial art robot and respond computer-like with pre-planned counters to a chaotic attack and your brain and nervous sytem siezes and locks up with tension because it can't respond naturally (like the cat), or effectively (with simple basic strikes).
Re: Relaxation Clint
Great answer, Matt!
In fact, my old tom cat just went at it the other day with another cat and the images of his actions are fresh in my mind.
I don't see that what he did was "relaxed" by any stretch of the imagination. He was a tensed up, ball of striking fury. In fact he was staring out the screen door for hours after his altercation, fur still standing on end and not the least bit "relaxed".
Would I be correct in assuming that the "relaxation" you are referring to is actually quite tense and convulsive?
If so, I think I know better how to train then.
Thanks for any additional feedback you might offer.
Re: Relaxation Matt Kovsky
I'd simply make the clear distinction that tension is an INABILITY to sense CHANGE in your opponent's motion as well as the inability to CHANGE and adapt your own. Look up the definition of the tai chi term Peng chin which means a spring-like resiliance. An enraged cat is NOT tense, it is poised like a spring; notice how under full adrenalin power it is able to twist, writhe, coil and arch its body in order to avoid and deliver bites and gouges. It is neither limp nor frozen with tension. It follows its genetic programing. Ki Chuan Do attempts to use the basic ape-like attributes of the human body, amplify them, and guide them. We contend that most martial art training opposes these attributes and imposes unnatural motion on the human body. We see what the cat does naturally and attempt to cultivate it, not regiment it, mechanize it and Mac-Dojo-ize it(!) so you wind up with people thinking fight scenes in the Matrix are the ideal, or with cops and soldiers trained to use locks and holds in combat which are proven by forensic and military research to be inadequate under life and death circumstances.
Re: Relaxation Ross Makoske
Being tense, I've noticed, also gives you tunnel vision and prevents body unity. Tense people tend to hit like rock em sock em robots. I've caught myself doing this before. It seems to me that the ki chuan do pronciple of raising the shoulders is contrary to most martial arts relaxation principles, although it is the body's reaction to danger and it serves to protect the body.
Re: Relaxation JP
If you are attacked by a swarm of bees do you get into a stance or do you stiffen up in a tight ball allowing the bees to have at you? I hope not. You will find yourself slapping at them and running at breakneck speed to the nearest cover. You will not attemp a judo throw on the bees nor will you set up a perfect barrage of reverse punches.You sill act naturally. During life and death struggles many victims move at incredible speed to ward off a knife. Most survive. It is mostly the ones who curl up in a ball that don't survive. KCD training is geared to enhance the natural survival mechanism. Practicing only simplified spasmodic techniques are good if you have a limited time to work in. Many of my friends who are masters in CQB prefer to practice these methods primarily. I have noticed, however, that once their balance was seriously challenged or they were struck unawares they also reverted to the natural high speed survival mechanisms which I have stated above. KCD takes a lot longer to study but it does actually work extremely well and gives a distinct advantage when mixed with all other types of training. Eyes open to the universe but keep your feet. Yours, JP
Re: Relaxation Gavin
A friend of mine, josh, just began training. his brother nate, jumped on him from behind to surprise him and got a face full of hands and elbows. my friends response was "i just flinched." training loose helps you to react naturally. when you train loose its like a conductor in front of an orchestra as he takes them through a soft slow relaxing score. about four months in and my friend josh who started as a "stiff fighter" is starting to react in a loose but lethal manner. responding to what he feels. thats another huge benefit to loose training. you repond at reflex speed. josh reacted to his brother at the speed of accidentally touching a burning hot surface. BUT; he FELT a brother on his back so he reacted but without intent, and did it automatically - without thought.) if he had felt an assailant with intent he would have responded accordingly. ive been training with master perkins for about 10 years and ive seen this happen over and over again. loose traing is what makes all the above possible. the looser you are the faster you will learn, the tighter you are the slower your progress.
SLOW METHODICAL INCREMENTAL FLOW
SLOW METHODICAL INCREMENTAL FLOW JOHN PERKINS
I HAVE NOTICED OVER THE YEARS THAT SLOW MOTION FORMS TRAINING AND SPARRING HAVE BEEN USED TO ENHANCE SOME MARTIAL ARTISTS' TRAINING. THIS IS GOOD. FOR THE KCD STUDENTS I WANT TO MAKE CLEAR HOW IMPORTANT VERY SLOW CONTACT FLOW TRAINING IS. JUST THE FACT THAT YOU ARE MOVING EXTREMELY SLOWLY WITH FULL ATTENTION TO YOUR BODY FROM YOUR TOES TO YOUR HEAD CAUSES A MEDITATION EFFECT TO OCCUR. IF YOU ARE MOVING SLOWLY WHILE PERFORMING UNCOOPERATIVE MOVEMENTS AGAINST YOUR PARTNER/S YOU WILL DEVELOP THE ABILITY TO BE SPONTANEOUS DURING ACTUAL FIGHTS. YOU MUST, HOWEVER, PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO THE EXPERIENDED STUDENTS AND ESPECIALLY THE INSTRUCTORS AS TO HOW YOU ARE STRIKING/DEFENDING. THROUGH MANY YEARS OF STUDY AND ACTUAL STREET EXPERIENCE I AND THE ADVANCED INSTRUCTORS HAVE LEARNED WHAT MOVEMENTS CAN AND WILL OCCUR DURING SERIOUS FULL SPEED HOMICIDAL ATTACKS. WE HAVE MOSTLY LEARNED THAT ANYTHING CAN AND MOST LIKELY WILL HAPPEN WHICH NO AMOUNT OF MEMORIZATION WILL WORK AGAINST. SOME WELL MEANING INSTRUCTORS WILL HAVE THEIR STUDENTS MOVE SLOWLY BUT THEY DON'T HAVE A GRIP ON THE CHAOTIC AND INTENSE TYPES OF MOTION THAT OCCUR DURING SERIOUS BLOODBATHS. I HAVE WATCHED THE TRAINING THAT GOES ON IN SOME FOREIGN BASED MILITARY ORIENTED MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOLS AND HAVE FOUND THEM LACKING SOME CRUCIAL ELEMENTS. WHEN YOU PRACTICE SLOWLY WITH PROPER GUIDANCE AND INTENTION YOU WILL GAIN ABILITIES THAT WILL ELUDE MOST MARTIAL ARTISTS AND CLOSE COMBAT EXPERTS. MOST MILITARY INSTRUCTORS BELIEVE THAT SUBTLE BALANCE, EVASION AND STRIKES SEEMINGLY OUT OF NOWHERE ARE FANTASY DURING A FULL BLOWN ATTACK. FOR THE MOST PART THEY ARE RIGHT. THE STUDY OF EXTREMELY SLOW REALITY BASED MOVEMENT WILL, HOWEVER, GIVE YOU AN ADVANTAGE TO JUST PRACTICING MEMORIZED TECHNIQUE AT MEDIUM, SLOW, AND HIGH SPEED. THIS IS BECAUSE INTRINSIC TO ANY PHYSICAL MOVEMENT BY A HUMAN BEING IS THE FACT THAT THE EXTREMELY SUBTLE MOVEMENTS WHICH GIVE THE "GIFTED" PERSON THE ADVANTAGE IN EITHER A FIGHT OR SPORTING EVENT CAN BE DISCOVERED AND ENHANCED IN MOST PEOPLE'S BODIES ALSO. I TRAINED WITH AND AGAINST PEOPLE WHO WERE AND ARE MORE GIFTED THAN MYSELF IN MANY PHYSICAL WAYS. I HAD ONE ADVANTAGE THOUGH AND THAT WAS A HIGHLY DEVELOPED EYE AND MEMORY WHEN IT CAME TO REPLAY OF THE EVENTS. THIS GIFT I USED TO A HIGH DEGREE WHEN TRAINING MYSELF AS WELL AS MY STUDENTS. REMEMBER, THE SLOWER YOU GO THE STRONGER YOU BECOME. ALSO REMEMBER KCD UTILIZES CERTAIN PRINCIPLES THAT NO OTHER ARTS DO. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY IMITATIONS. GOOD LUCK, JP
Striking Mechanics Ken
I just read through the entire book again and I'm just as impressed as ever. However, there are some things that are still mindboggling. Keep in mind that I'm doing this solely to be constructive so don't take this as a veiled insult or some form of arrogance.
You all advocate penetrating 2 inches on strikes to get somewhat of a splash effect so that you won't go off balance. OK,(sorry that I keep doing this) I was taught that the only way to really effect someone is to penetrate at least 3 inches, ideally 6-12.. The reason is because since the body is made of primarily water and mobile joints, the body will compress 3 inches before you can even begin to effect nerves or the skeletal system. There is no chance that I would go off balance or even rely on the attacker's body because my former training had us doing some balance stances that literally allowed me to adapt to the KCD balance drills not in days, not in minutes, but in seconds. I was also trained to never reach with my arms but to always move my legs and feet.
There were even a couple of fight scenarios described(I know, the nerve of me) where I strongly felt that the fighter could've dropped the attacker probably a few hits sooner if he would've used some really good penetrating blows simply because he was able to get into a highly advantageous position. Now keep in mind that I'm not talking about external punches either because according to the definition, the punches I perform are definitely internal and don't require strength. However, they do require chambering so thats definitely a knock against them. It would take a while for me to get into that part but something I would suggest as an example of what I'm currently speaking on is to go to page 50, 3.4b of Attack Proof. If you drive through with that strike at a 45 degree downward angle, the attacker will either go down or he'll have to place one of his feet back faster than the force vector to maintain his balance. If you don't drive through, the attacker can simply recover and you'll have to continue striking with more fast strikes. If you drive him down,(this also applies to the bladder as a target), the attacker will be on the ground and be succeptible to ankle and knee breaks from heel stomps or whatever you want to do as long as you don't stop striking. The good thing is that it wouldn't matter if hes drugged or crazed because through these physics you are manipulating the attacker with body weight and not pain.
When it comes to getting into advantageous positions I've seen none better than KCD, which is why I'm here.
The question I guess I'm posing is whether there is some other reason why you only penetrate 2 inches? Once you get in certain positions theres nothing your attacker can do in defense anyway. Are you sacrificing something else in the process of driving more? Let me stop right here and point out something, I'm not trying to play Mr. Bad Ass because I personally think I'd get whipped severely by someone that really understood KCD but I simply feel the need to challenge the accepted wisdom:)
Re: Striking Mechanics John Perkins
Ken, let not your heart be troubled. What you have described is a reference in ATTACK PROOF to splashing an attackers limb while continuing on into a head or body shot. The 2 inch strike is applied using dropping force. This enables you to not get caught up with blocking and then applying a seperate strike. In KCD you will often move into your attacker by drop stepping or single leg weight displacement while delivering a strike or body deflection or simply slamming your opponent to the ground while knocking an arm or weapon out of the way with the same attacking hand. In KCD you will deliver as deep a strike as possible. Usually a strike will penetrate an attacker's torso at such a rate of speed that he will not be thrown away from the KCD practitioner. Instead of pushing an opponent it is far more effective to crush a target area. Remember the same energy it takes to push someone 6 to 20 feet can be applied to the body with proper dynamics to penetrate the body. As far as any illustrations in the AP book go you can step into any strike to achieve the depth needed for incapacitation or worse. The reference to loosing balance generally applies to limb attacks. In most cases you don't want to over reach and loose your balance during a fight. If you do loose your balance and start to fall to the ground you could try to take a piece of your attacker with you. If you get to the ground you should apply all the dirtiest tricks with all the speed and power you can muster. If you have a multiple attacker situation you can apply the native american ground techniques combined with all the KCD principles. Some of the most basic of these ground fighting techniques can be found in the latest seminar video. The native american fighting methodology must be experienced to feel it's effectiveness. I have shown some of it to a few serious ground/shoot/UFC fighters and Major Ridenhour has demonstrated it against a number of military instructors trained in the Gracie method. All of these individuals found it to be devastating. Incidentally I don't feel it disrespectful to ask questions. What I do find annoying is when instructors will talk against KCD without having any direct experience with us. As far as doing the drills in the book goes they are important for gaining the ability to strike far more deeply and effectively than the vast majority of fighting methods can perform. An internal strike refers to one that leaves the striker in near perfect balance with very little muscular effort. If a strike is chambered it by most Tai Chi definitions is not internal. By chambering you must remove an attacking limb away from the target thus taking too much time which upsets foward energy application and giving too much warning to a capable opponent that something is coming. Most people who chamber their strikes are thwarted by the application of quite a few KCD principles. One of my students the Super Welterweight boxing champion of the NABO, Doug Gray, can verify this fact.
Size differences Bob
I am only 5' 5'' tall. As a result, there are many people so tall that the neck or head are not viable targets. Am I mistaken? Are the neck and head still good targets, or are there other potential targets that would be better when a large size difference exists?
Re: Size differences Ross Makoske
There are better people to answer this, but I have some thoughts. Low attacks to the knees, groin, and shins can bring an opponent down to your level so you can strike the neck and head if necessary. Areas of the body, such as the solar plexis, and ribs are not as lethal, but they often cause an opponent to curl up and bring their hands in front of those targets, leaving the head nad neck exposed. Don't forget about the kidneys and between the shoulderblades, as striking here can cause the back and neck to arch back, exposing the chin point and neck. Being short has advantages when striking the neck as you can strike from under the jaw at an upward angle. Being short, you should train your elbows, as they are often best to attack the body and you aren't eliminating any range on your opponent-only jamming him.
Re: Size differences Humble Student
I am 5'2" tall. I constantly hit the tall guys in the eyes and throat. People don't stand tall when fighting. Their eyes/throat are almost always within reach. If they do stand tall, they are easily taken off balance. As they try to recover their balance, throat them. Don't backup and don't let them backup. Then they will have reach over you. Go for the groin. Even if you fake a shot, amazingly they usually bend over. Again, throat them. Never try to beat them with strenth. Be sneaky while going for the eyes.
If you can, go to an Attack Proof class or seminar. The instructors would be happy to show you how.
Re: Size differences Andre'
As having worked out with Humble Student the other day , I am 6'2" , I was was being tested severly and can attest to his "sneakiness" , I was rather impressed by his subversiveness of attack. He kept me off balance and struck often and was just as impressed with him as the larger students.
Size doesnt matter .
cane defense david davies
Do any of the Attack Proof tapes deal with
self-defense using a cane. I use a cane for
walking and support so any system of fighting
I might use would have to be adaptable to my
use of the cane. I tried the Russian Systema,
but after just two lessons the head instructor
said I was not fit enough to come to his school.
I guess they (systema people) don't think people
with disabilities need to know self-defense.
Re: cane defense Matt Kovsky
Both the original Attack Proof tape and the 2001 Seminar Tape have detailed cane defense info.
Re: cane defense JP
I have been training with canes at least since 1966 when I broke my ankle. I also trained in Hapkido cane methodology. I can teach from the one footed stance some devastating techniques. The cane has often been my primary weapon during much traveling where I could not legally carry a handgun. You don't have to be in top shape to use a cane for defense. I have taught people with cereberal palsy and other disabilities. The use of the cane is nearly unlimited. If you require private instruction you can reach me at firstname.lastname@example.org. Good luck, JP
Indonesian Combat==SILAT Jack
Hi, wondering if you any experience w/the above....I understand it is the only current combat
art still in field testings (with all the wars down there) and fluid and superior to anything
Any conclusions on this?????
how bout this ??
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT JP
There are some martial arts that are being tested all over the globe as we speak. Most of the members of various military forces give feedback to their instructors through channels as to the effectiveness of all their training. Certain Spec. Ops. group members both in the military and law enforcement that I know of personally are training with and using KCD out in the field. Be mindful as to how various martial/combat arts are advertised. Many are out there riding the hype wagon. Some hype is necessary to get attention in our sensory overloaded society. Much good information can be found out there. It takes some real experience to begin to separate the useful from the BS. The latest thing which was predicted by Prof. Bradley J. Steiner a few years ago is the addition of the word combat to many martial disciplines in order to jump on the combat craze that he felt was inevitable. Much good information is out there to learn. How many of these "combat" arts can stand the test of the windstorm and chaos of actual battle? We at Attack Proof Inc. are always on the lookout for methodologies that can be of real service to our people in the line of fire. I have worked with various Silat practitioners using both armed and unarmed techniques. Some of these techniques are formidable when applied properly. Take care, JP
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT Dante
I have trained in Silat, and taught for a while. I have written emails to Attacl Proof and commented on the similiarities. I have found Guided Chaos to run many parrallels with Indonesian Silat but without the the extras. In silat there is a lot of cultural tradition, however if you boil it down it is basically guided chaos. But I have found that in Silat , as in many arts, there a techniques taught that unless practiced for years, would be impractical for real life application. And I will say that Silat isnt the "ONLY" art doing anything. None are. I found it to be the most street effective art based on its principles, 1-multiple attackers 2-by suprise 3-they're armed
Silat is fluid , fast, and destructive. However, it unfortunate that you will find many instructors to be DEEPLY steeped in the occult. Once I reached a certain level of proficiency i was asked to delve into spiritual training, mantras,mudras,genie dolls, animl possession, you name it...So be wary
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT John Perkins
I have found that many of my friends who are world class stick/knife competitive fighters are all still using methods which are based on memorized responses to certain agreed upon attack/defense modalities. This is also true or their hand to hand combat. Remember that anyone can cause chaos during a confrontation. The ability to deal with the unchoreographed life and death fighting that happens especially to police officers in the field does NOT look like any of the memorized martial arts. Even the advanced practitioners of many of the Indonesian and Phillipino arts will fight chaotically when put to the test. If you doubt me get a hold of some of the Dog Brothers stick fighting tapes these guys are crazy. They hit for real and have taken on quite a few adepts and usually have won by breaking some bones. If you are dealing with all possibilities in combat remember you can fight in a car on the train on the side of a mountain in the winter snow when you are ready or not. My father told me many years ago not to deify any teacher or philosophy. No one has the corner on all forms of combat. Causing chaos should not be confused with controlling it. Hands on experience is the best stimulus to learning well. I hope that this rambling post will strike the proper center of thinking in some of you. If you are confused read this again. If you need further clarification see me in person. Many thanks for your patience. Thank you, JP
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT Occult Michael Coplon
I am curious as to why you say "be wary". I think that some occult practices like invoking the spirit of animals (animal possesion) are not good for mental health but I am wondering what your thoughts on all of this are. By the way I am neither for or against the occult. Most martial arts have an occult (hidden) aspect.
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT Ross Makoske
so, what would you say is the benefit of technique training? And isn't silat based on the use of techniques trained in a less and less structured environment leading to combat? I look at it as moving mediatation directed towards targeting specific areas (like close combat training basically) and I try to incorporate balance and body unity to get the most out of it.
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT JP
You hit the nail on the head. In over 47 years of study of martial arts I have come across the problem of many teachings based on the philosophy of learning and memorizing many techniques and after much practice you somehow become able to handle real confrontations. Some people have been able to do this. Many Indonesian and Philippino martial arts operate from this perspective and it is especially effective for them because much of their practice simulates reality more closely than the majority of martial arts. KCD is not about this. From the beginning you study principles of movement geared to allow you to deal with non choreographed attacks that are the norm in the world of the homicidal maniac as well as the prison trained fighter or serious experienced street fighter or well trained military warrior. You can add KCD principles to your present training, assuming it is reality based, or work the principles directly in a KCD classroom. Remember, take nothing for granted in battle. You may have to fight bare-handed against an armed opponent(s) on the beach, on the side of a snow covered mountain, in your living room, from your bed in the dark, in the back seat of a car, while handcuffed, while half dazed, at a 7-11, on a roof top, during a flight, anywhere anytime without rehearsal, with your heart pounding and your vision in a tunnel. I learned early on that no-one can predict what will happen in a fight and the best survivors were those who could adapt to instant reality. KCD was invented to allow a person to maximize their ability to react or control a conflict immediately with nearly no time gap. The use of the cane, knife, and gun are also taken to a high degree for instant decisive defense or offense. KCD should be experienced personally for a higher degree of insight. Good luck, JP
Re: Indonesian Combat==SILAT dante
In response, I agree that silat fails in the same regard as other martial arts, in so much as it does teach technique. I found that only after studying it, and teaching it did I arrive at the same conclusions as JP. Specifically that the progression of arts are taught backwards, chaos should be paramount immediately, and not after 10 years.
On the subject of the occult, here is a list of practices I have been exposed to: Kabbalism, Animism, Shamanism...Creating objects of power, or receptacles for your chi, people claim to shoot you with a bolt of energy from across the room, people trying to move things with their mind, spirit vampirism( people thinking they can suck your life force through your eyes with a stare) Creating dolls of clay and putting elements of yourself in them, saliva etc...
All in all there are only so many techniques you can teach before your students know as much as you, intellectually anyway. Hereafter you will con artists who want to convince you to stay and keep learning the REAL ART--the metaphysic garbage. You see they always need an edge, something you dont have!!! Occultic activity is generally unhealthy, spiritually, and psychologically. You will find that most occultic activity is centered around forms of mind control---check out Counterfit Revival by Hank Hannegraaff for examples such techniques.
It's All The Same - Isn't It
I've always found it interesting that people see Attack Proof / Ki Chuan Do as it's just like this art or that art. JKD, Systema, Aiki Jitsu, Aikido, Ba Kua, and the list goes on and on. It's true there are similarities in some parts of each of these arts, but there are some very real, very significant differences. What have you heard it's like, or what do you think it's like and what are the differences you see?
Re: It's All The Same - Isn't It Michael Coplon
The system that I have the most knowledge of is Chen style Tai Chi Chuan. The second most is Yang style Tai Chi Chuan and the third is Ki Chuan Do (Attack Proof). There is a pretty big difference between the way that most people apply Chen Style and the way that KCD practioners operate, although most of the principles are the same. The Chen style trainning methods that are mostly taught are Nei Gung exercises to make the body very strong, healthy, aligned in gravity, etc, etc. This is good but like many other arts, these methods are confused with how to apply the art for self defense. The result is that most Chen Style exponents use too much strength and fight at a longer range than KCD. KCD is more yielding and let's the opponent get very close where the fight can be finnished almost imeadiately. In addition most Chen style practioners do not train in a way that will prepare them for a really chaotic situation that is unfolding in an unfamiliar way. I don't know for sure but from what I have read and what I have experienced the combat trainning has been for the most part lost. The closest thing left is push hands and this is really only a trainning to develop certain attributes. Form applictions give some intersting concepts but taken the wrong way leads to Tai Chi by the numbers which is worse than wothless.
Yang style Tai Chi Chuan tends to be more yieldingk, but like Chen style, the realities of real no rules fighting do not seem to be addressed as they are in KCD. Also it seems that the only way to develope the body and health to the extent of Chen Style is to do serious standing in the Yang Style postures. This is usually harder to do (very boring) than it is to do several sets of Chen Style solo form. Actually the effects are not identical for the Yang style standing and the Chen style form but they are comparable. The Yang style standing gives slightly less health benefits but a bit more development that can be used for fighting. This is not to say that the Yang style solo form is wothless.It still has a little bit of health, fall prevention, stress reduction and other such benefits, even for the old and tight bodies of most senior citizens. And once the body has been properly develop and opened up the Yang style solo form is at least of equal value for improving health and gainning self defense attributes as the Chen style solo form.
KCD, has limited, extremely boring solo developmental exercises which give a lot of useful fighting attributes but little or no health benefits. Also the execises are such that no one mistakes them for fighting applications (at least no one that I know). On the other hand it seems to me that most of the lower level KCD students do not practice these exercises or else they would learn much more quickly where there feet are and the ground is and how to use this knowledge. It is not possible to do any real KCD without this level of awareness. Once the students pass this basic level what they are doing seems like what combat Tai Chi Chuan could be, ought to be and maybe once was.
attackproof site Tom Daly
Hey John and everyone at Attack Proof... the site is very informative... I have no martial arts background.. so I am receiving everything with a fresh mind and I find it all very accessible. I've asked this question to John before, but now I'll ask the forum... Can I, without having any background at all in martial arts and having been in only a handful of street fights (non bloodbaths), become an effective fighter in the rare situation that I need to protect my family from an attacker. I've been to one class and was intimidated by the rest of the students who all seemed to have extensive knowledge of at least two forms of self defense.... How can I confront someone taller and stronger than me with multiple belts in martial arts? Thanks for any input everyone...
Re: attackproof site kevin
While there are many more students and instructors of KCD better suited than I to answer your questions I will give you my 2-cents. Whatever John's response to your question was I'm sure was sufficient and complete. However, much of a "doubting Tom" that you may be this is the best and most realistic form of self defense that I have ever experienced. I have studied various other martial arts systems. I'm sure that you are not the first person to be intimdated when attending your first class. The thing to do is to fight through your initial fears and keep coming to class. Every student that I have come across is very interested in helping others learn as they learn themselves. While learning how to protect yourself and your love ones John will also teach you how to overcome those fears and put you in the right state of mind. There are quite a few students who while small in stature do not get intimidated by others who may be taller or larger than themselves. In all of the other arts that I have taken I never been around more confident (but not egoistical) martial artists than those of KCD.
As far as confronting so called multi belted martial artists I suggest you read the Ask Major Al archive section of this website. While you are right that many of John's students have extensive knowledge of at least two forms of martial arts and some have more, another point to ask yourself is why are they there? Do you think if they felt their previous training was sufficient for maximum protection they would be taking classes from John? Remember these people who have higher rankings in their previous systems. Sometime talk to some of the students and you will be amazed at the distance they travel to attend class. Some as far as 2 and 1/2 hours north of Rockland County at least two times a week. Last year John use to have a 23 year kung fu master attend his monday night Hasting, NY, class who came all the way from Scranton, PA. So my friend that should tell you something.
Re: attackproof site Matt Kovsky
Fear not Tom, KCD classes have to be about the mellowest, most laid back, least competitive and least pretentious martial arts schools around, filled with mostly helpful students of every ability level. In my experience, KCD provides the quickest, least intimidating and most supportive no B.S. approach to self-defense for the absolute novice available. As far as previous knowledge goes, don't be intimidated because it often gets in the way of learning KCD and many students are actually here unlearning bad habits that a fresh beginner would be free of.
Re: attackproof site michaelcoplon
Multiple belts in martial arts can mean different things as far as serious self defense abilty goes. In most cases Tom, it means very little or as Matt said, it means that they have bad habits to unlearn. Unfortunately the way even good martial arts are typically taught, very few people become highly skilled at self defense. This could even happen in attack proof which has excellent training methods. The reason for this is that knowing how to translate the training into actually usage takes certain knowledge that can be gained second hand, but then it is get very watered down. Third forth or fith hand it usually become a oure fantasy.
Few people have that knowledge, because if they have been it fights those fights have been more about domination, the pecking order, and so forth rather than about fighting for your life. You can see this behavior among animals of of the same species among members of the same pack, heard, pride or whatever. They actually want to dominate without fighting so they get big and puffed up, stiff and make a lot of noise hoping that the other one will back down without a fight. Contrast this with a predator looking for lunch. you can get an idea just watching a house cat stalking and attacking its prey. They are very alert loose and relax. They remain very quiet and then suddenly attact with utter ferocity. Defending yourself against an armed sociopathic criminal, so I am told is more like this having to deal with this. The answer so I am told is to give it right back. I don't have that experience (except I did escape 2 mugging attemps by changing the script, which I didn't plan. Something took over and I just went along.) I am very glad I have not had too face this sort of thing and will not feel that I have missed out on anything if I never do. Few people have this experience, and fewer still have had enough of it and survived and are intellegent enough to draw general conclusion about what is likely to work and how to train to develop in the right way. With this experience a person can tell you how to apply a quality art. Few people have the experience and intellegence and most arts have little or no quality. So you see Tom, other than for puffing up top look big and making a lot of noise, most belts don't mean much other being a recipt for tuition. Most belts simply mean time money and effort spent and not much more when it comes to dealing with the unthinkable. It is my belief that the belts in attackproof are differnt and that most of the people are competant in self defense.
Re: attackproof site
In a word, yes! Now of course that has to be qualified. If you don't have too many physical limitations such as loss of the use of a limb or two, or if you are very old (I have seen effective fighters in our classes in their 70's), or if you have some other natural challenge that would generally prevent you from moving freely then you can develop the most effective fighting skill possible for you. In protecting your family, you will probably not encounter any perpetrator that has multiple martial arts ranks and training. They will however probably be armed or large in number or size and strong. If it's that you don't feel comfortable with training with people that have so much experience, then I suggest you just come to class and give the other students and instructors a chance to show you how much we care about your progress, comfort, and concerns. I understand that it can be intimidating to walk into a classroom (gym, legion hall, martial arts center) and see many powerful looking fully-grown men and some women -- it was a shock for me too at first. When you attend class, after any initial apprehension subsides I think you will find that nearly everyone there is supportive and interested in helping.
Just to be direct in answering the second half of your question, you will learn ways of dealing with an attacker that don't involve so much of a confrontation, but more a way of:
Increasing your awareness in general
Assessing a situation so that you can get away before things get bad
Changing the (mugging, raping, etc.) script on a perpetrator
Setting boundaries and commanding a potential attacker
Using subterfuge to get an attacker to let their guard down
When necessary, attacking the attacker by means of pre-emptive strike and repeated ferocious precision strikes, minimizing the confrontation and ending the conflict
Come to class, read the book
Re: weaklings & invisiblemaster JP
It is very clear that KCD must be felt. Much will be revealed that cannot through reading and video. All the drills lead up to the actual application of KCD. I have found that only those who have developed their inner abilities to a great extent have some grasp of what the drills are about and those are very few. Most of the internal arts fall far short of high speed real world application. Many people try to re-create KCD without actual experience. No amount of verbal argument alone will give anyone insight. The exercises are designed to enhance the average martial artist's basic abilities and to guide the KCD student when a class is not available. Unfortunately I and the master instructors are not able to travel all over the globe. I make it fairly easy for students to train personally with me from many countries. I teach the blind and teach from the chair as well. Even if you are not disabled the blind chair training is an extreme method of gaining insight. No fight is neccessary to feel the fluid freedom that KCD can give a person. KCD training stands alone as a method of physical meditation. You cannot go far without internalizing the concepts. This is a pure fact. All the principles that can be learned from the book and videos will put a student in the right direction for enhancing basic power and all the other attributes. Physical initiation can give a spark toward a deeper understanding. The ultimate result is to feel like water and then vapor. This is not an esoteric mind game. It is real. You can get along very well just with the external methodology that KCD offers and stay viable in most serious altercations. The higher levels are there to be discovered even if only for the art of it. Thanks JP
Re: Al Coangelo JP
I have seen many demonstrations of chi/qi and have been teaching and using very simple, direct methodology to develop chi for fighting purposes. Many masters of Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing I, Ba Gua, Wing Chung and others have demonstrated their arts to me and we have moved with each other. As Grand Master Ik Jo Kang said to me in 1971,"Perkins san, you must not observe with baby eyes" in reference to feats of strength either physical/external or physical/internal. My father said to always have a respectful disrespect of all teachers. Dr. Peter DeForrest Head of Forensic Science at John Jay College in NYC taught me to be a true scientific sceptic. I am a believer in the Spirit and the Physical. I test before I believe. Driving a line of men backward or slamming them to the ground with an internal punch can be mastered by almost anyone in a short time as long as they are open to the fact that it is not magic. If a person can withstand the brutal onslaught of a crazed maniac with a knife who shows up to the party with a likeminded friend he/she has shown some real world prowess. Matches never can replicate a real homicidal attack. Size and strength can be dealt with. I have taught some smaller men to withstand the locked hand wrist wrestling of men who can bench 500 pounds and I have done it with Nick Calli who benched 620 when he weighed 275 and I weighed 195. Major Al, Lt. Tom Barnett, Mike Watson, Stathis Kaperones, Master Tim Carron, Bob Chomicky, Big George the blood cousin of Bruno Samartino, Master Doc Miller, Grand Master Waisun Liao, Grand Master Kang, and many more can drop a man who weighs over 300 pounds with seeming ease with one hand. My father could punch a hole in a Philco Refrigerator. All of these men will tell you it does not take a long time and mysterious magic to accomplish these things. A former 50 year old push hands champion of the United States from Ossning N.Y. could not control Major Al's 11 year old son at his school using his chi power. No magic was applied. I witnessed a man jump from a 7 story window while trying to escape me and other police officers who got up and ran. This is only one of the many "mysterious" feats I have witnessed personally. The drug dealer was high on Hashish. Maybe that is the answer. Remember that Bruce Lee was addicted to Hash. Could that be the answer? Of course I am not seriously saying to get high on drugs for incredible powers. All I am saying is that much of what people show as mystical, and unatainable abilities are not all they are cracked up to be. If you are easily hypnotized then you will fall for many "magic" feats. Only serious reality checks will show the truth. Believe in the Spirit but keep your powder dry. Good luck, JP
Re: Al Coangelo Ken
John, I have 3 part question..
1. Could you give me a more detailed example of what you mean by locked hand wrist wrestling and how you taught the smaller men to withstand it from much stronger men?
2. Do you agree with me that if a man completely breaks(not a hairline fracture) his leg that he absolutely cannot run on it being that his skeletal support has been completely disabled even despite his crazed state of mind, or "warrior intentions". I've always felt that the psychosis of these individuals absolutely cannot change the physical laws of the universe.
3. You mentioned Grandmaster Waysun Liao. I looked him up and he's definitely within training distance for me. I know you don't want to inadvertently slam one of your teachers, but is it possible for you to tell me what I can expect and what areas of KCD he doesn't cover which I'll have to fulfill during my own time? Of course if the Chicago area had a KCD school I'd be there in a heartbeat but unfortunately that isn't the case.
Thanks a million,
Re: Al Coangelo JP
The answer to your first question can only be learned directly. Words alone, no matter how eloquent fail in some matters. The answer to your second question is obvious. Depending on the type of break only certain movement is possible despite will power. The answer to your third question is this. If Grand Master Liao chooses to accept you as a student of Tai Chi Chuan you should be more than busy for the next 5 years or so just to work with him on the basics. Grand Master Liao is about as far as a person can go to learn serious Tai Chi for combat. If you are lucky enough to be able to train under him you should be thankful. Most people never get close to a real teaching adept. Good luck, JP
similarities Ross Makoske
I started reading the Book of Five Rings, and I was pleasantly surprised at the similarities with Attack Proof. I recommend it for anyone interested in martial arts. It is based on Musashi's swordsmanship school, and the methods are similar to Attack Proof (sticking to the opponent, being like water, striking from anywhere, fighting without form, having a stance without a stance, never remaining static, using all of your most effective weapons to prevent any regret, focusing not on defense but fighting, focus on warfare). It goes to show that real experienced fighters discover the same things, which transcend culture, weaponry, and time period.
Re: similarities JP
Musashi never studied in a school for fencing. Most of the 60 swordmasters he killed were from recognized schools. Many of his duels were fought with a wooden sword against his opponents' steel ones. How could this happen???? How could an "unschooled" swordsman defeat a formaly trained duelist???? What attributes do you think he would have needed???? Thank you Ross for your information on Musashi. He is one of my favorite literary/historic heroes. For anyone out there see the video Sword of Doom. It is not about Musashi but the philosophy of the dark samurai portrayed is interesting. Free thinking is not only possessed by the good guys. I hope this post instigates some responses from some of you out there. JP
A LESSON TO US ALL... Major Al
The Fatal shooting of Alex Gong, a lesson to us all...
While this story is dated it is a sobering reminder
that confronting someone on the street is fraught with many dangers and highlights the difference in
mentality one must have when dealing with the street savvy criminal as opposed
to fighting in a sportive contest. I have summarized the original set of
articles posted to the "Kickboxing.com" website to highlight the key aspects of
this horrific incident. I present this information not for the purpose of
soiling the memory of the victim Alex Gong but to reinforce the importance of
maintaining you "situational awareness" even when enraged. This story while sad
also illustrates a few keys points for all of us to consider with regard to
1. The victim was obviously highly skilled in the martial arts and
probably in a "straight up" fight no doubt would have pummeled this guy to a
2. He was well respected in the community and well loved for his
teaching and motivation and revered for is fighting prowess
3. The attacker obviously didn't care about any of the above and
only wanted to get away
4. Criminals are generally no "respecters of persons"
As stated over and again throughout our book "Attack Proof" it doesn't matter
who you are or what you know: if the enemy gets the drop on you you're done. Real
fights are hell-storms of mayhem, in which anything goes. Whereas sport /
tournament fighting is controlled, regimented and done in a manner in which it
is assumed that in large part some cooperation or rules will always be present.
Also, real attacks happen lighting fast and the strikes are delivered with
supernatural speed, which is why awareness is your first line of defense. If you
are not mentally prepared to deal with an attack on your life, or the reality of
what really happens during a violent confrontation to include the possibility of
being seriously injured, you are done.
Who knows perhaps had the shooter known whom he was dealing with, maybe he
wouldn't have shot him? But the fact is in the act of trying to escape he was
not interested in finding out. The "point" is, you just never know what another
person is going to do from one moment to the next in a real fight, and that's
the point! Having been the victim of a similar family tragedy I feel for the
family and friends of Alex Gong, I hope justice comes swiftly for him and his
family and so that his death is not in vain, let us all learn from this tragedy.
Fatal shooting of Alex Gong, a world champion Kick boxer in San Francisco
August 6, 2003
World champion Alex Gong, 30 a Thai-style kick boxer was shot to death in the
middle of a busy San Francisco street Friday after he chased down a hit-and-run
driver who had slammed into his parked car minutes earlier. Gong was
pronounced dead at the scene on Fifth Street near Harrison Street. Gong, who had
been working out at the South of Market training gym he runs at was wearing
yellow boxing gloves and boxing trunks when he was killed.
Alex Gong, a resident of San Francisco, was born and raised in New England, and
lived for a time in Central Asia before returning to the East Coast. He later
moved to California and graduated from San Francisco State University with a
degree in business.
Long interested in judo and tae kwon do, Gong discovered Muay Thai, a form of
kickboxing and the national sport of Thailand, in 1994. He once said in an
interview that he was drawn to the sport by the fluid movement and careful
balance it requires.
He had a natural affinity for the sport and racked up an impressive array of
championships in the middleweight and welterweight classes. He appeared
regularly on HBO and ESPN and headlined fights at the MGM Grand and the Mirage
in Las Vegas. He was a dedicated competitor who trained tirelessly, often waking
at dawn to run five miles and perform scores of sit-ups, push-ups and other
exercises before going to work.
San Francisco's CBS Channel 5 News reported, "according to investigators say
there was a minor traffic off 5th St. in the South of Market area, and that the
victim of the homicide apparently chased the suspect's car." Police are still
looking for the Jeep driver who shot and killed 32-year- old Alex Gong, a
Thai-style kick boxer and training gym operator, after an argument at Fifth and
Harrison streets about 4:30 p.m. Friday.
The gunman was described as a Caucasian between 155 and 165 pounds who was
driving a green Jeep Cherokee. The slaying came one day after San Francisco
Mayor Willie Brown and other officials announced the start of a campaign to
crack down on hit-and-run driving.
According to reports moments before the shooting, the driver had crashed into
Gong's car, parked on Clementina Street. Enraged, Gong gave chase on foot, going
a block east on Clementina, then a block and a half south on Fifth Street. At
that point, Gong confronted the driver, who had been forced to stop as traffic
backed up near the Bay Bridge on-ramp.
''The victim put his arm out to stop the driver, the driver pushed him back and
then shot him point blank," said Marilyn Moore, a witness who was riding in a
car on Fifth Street. "The victim grabbed himself and fell backward," she said.
"The driver backed up, put the car in drive and drove off. He turned right on
Harrison. "I just couldn't believe it, I've never seen nothing like that in my
life," Moore said.
Shortly before midnight Friday, Millbrae police Officer Matthew Erdozain found
the abandoned Jeep at a Chevron gas station at in Millbrae, said Millbrae police
Officer Aaron Treadway. The Jeep had been reported stolen in July in Pacifica
and was carrying a stolen license plate that belonged to San Francisco resident.
Other Eyewitness Accounts
Witnesses say the victim confronted the suspect. "It appears that it was a
traffic accident dispute," said Maria Oropeza of the San Francisco Police
Department. "The victim chased the suspect, and upon contact, the suspect shot
A witness named Jason said, "He tried to confront the guy. We heard one pop, and
he fell to the ground."
Another witnesses said he was shot at point-blank range when he confronted the
driver, who apparently "waited" for a traffic signal to turn green before
opening fire and speeding away. They say after he shot Gong the driver sped away
towards the Bay Bridge but not before several of Gong's students caught the make
of the car and his license plate number. The students tried to revive Gong but
were obviously not successful.
Philip Tong, 43, a San Francisco cleaning contractor and former student at the
gym, said he happened to be driving by the intersection Friday night and saw a
Jeep driving erratically, followed soon afterward by "someone running down the
street, no shirt, no pants. I thought it was a street person."
Brian Lam, 26, an instructor at Fairtex, said, "As I was running up, I see Alex
arguing with the guy," Lam said. "The light turned green, the guy popped him. He
definitely waited for the light to turn green." Lam said a single bullet struck
Gong just above the heart. "I thought he was dead maybe 10 seconds after he was
shot," Lam said.
Eric Oetjen, 33, who had worked for Gong, described him Saturday as "a very
dynamic individual." "He was extremely passionate. He had a great amount of
integrity. He was a very giving person to a fault, and he will be missed,"
Oetjen said. Oetjen said Gong was not the kind of person to back down from a
fight. "He had no fear. He would have wanted to know, 'Why did you bang into my
car and leave?' "
"This is a sad day for martial arts." Said Scott Coker, (L) who was responsible
for much of Gong's publicized success as a fighter on the Strike Force Events in
San Jose, California shown on ESPN Worldwide. "He did so many great things for
Muay Thai and the martial arts community, keeping Muay Thai alive in America
through his spirit and his gym."
Memorial at the Gym
At the gym, more than 15 bouquets were fastened to the wire grating or propped
against the brick wall in Gong's memory, along with an assortment of candles
with religious inscriptions. The memorial was watched over by a group of
homeless men who sat against the wall, drinks in hand, and remembered the man
who was always willing to do something for them.
"We're drinking here because we lost a friend," said Daniel Mickey, 47. "He gave
us blankets, sheets, food. He even gave us money. He watched over us."
Messages from other friends were scrawled on paper signs that read, "Gym
"Thank you for taking a stand. Sorry you paid the price," said a message signed
by Nate, a neighbor of two doors down.
"I understand your reasons and I still love you," an unsigned message said.
One placard showed Gong in a fighting stance, with a heart drawn around his
photo and the inscription, "Forever in our hearts." One of the homeless men
hoisted the placard high on the grating and refastened it, explaining, "He was a
Re: A LESSON TO US ALL... Ken
I believe the shooter killed himself when the authorities caught up with him. Alex very recently represented Muay Thai on TLC's top ten martial arts and he was undoubtedly a skilled fighter. The irony is that I believe that his skill level ultimately played a part in him chasing the criminal down. Its is a reminder not to be wreckless with your abilities. Use them on a must need basis only.
Re: Deep Punching Major Al
There is a thing in the martial arts called "cold power" or "cutting power" [see Tai Chi Classics, by Master Wasun Liao] which is covered in Attack Proof under "dropping strikes," and as always there is nothing mystical about this skill. This is also referred to in Attack Proof as the "Dempsey Drop" named after the great boxer Jack Dempsey who was a master at this technique. Since the human body is about 80% water in order to damage another person including their organs you must "splash" the tissue as you strike this is accomplished by "dropping" you body on your strikes. While dropping appears to be very similar to the infamous Bruce Lee "once inch punch" it is a much more profound and effective skill since it can be done from virtually any standing position as opposed to a static position as in his demonstrations in which the person stands still while you strike them. Heck, you can make anything work if people stand there and let you do it. All dropping power is, is subtle muscular control when striking another person. As you drop straight down and catch yourself over your "root point" you want to penetrate your opponent at the moment of impact so hard and fast that their body does not have time to get out of the way, or is not able to absorb and redirect the strike in time. For a more detailed explanation please refer to Attack Proof.
Re: Deep Punching JP
Deep punching is definitely not mysterious. The only difficult part is practicing it from all angles and positions and at extreme speed. Basically it is what Major Al referred to above. There is a viscious type of punch or strike method which uses the dropping principle like a double tap. Here you simply drop your weight into a strike and penetrate as deep as possible and at the apex of entry into the body you instantly drop again with the same strike only you now push it deeper into the body. This takes a good amount of practice and you MUST have your ligaments and tendons in good order to prevent injury to yourself. It is done on the exhale as you strike pushing whatever tissue or bone is under your weapon (fist, palm, elbow etc.}To practice this you need a heavy bag that has a soft cover of foam around it. The foam should be at least 4" thick. To practice you would stand in front of the bag and push it forward with your striking weapon as far as possible. On the return swing you would punch the bag as fast as you can while dropping on your forward foot. (remember to wrap up your wrist for punching) Next as you feel that you have penetrated as far as possible you should still have some bend in your elbow for further extension. You next drop both feet out from under you and catch as you do in a forward foot drop step. You should feel as if only one strike is occurring while your legs from your feet on up do all of the work. The concept is simple the practice is tough. Remember not to cause the bag to spin. You should hit it flush, right in the center. This will insure that your striking power is maximized. Good luck, JP
Food for thought
Food for thought Student
"It is conceivable that a long time ago a certain martial artist discovered some partial truth. During his lifetime, the man resisted the temptation to organize this partial truth, although this is a common tendency in man's search for security and certainty in life. After his death, his students took 'his' hypothesis, 'his' postulates, 'his' inclination, and 'his' method and turned them into law. Impressive creeds were then invented, solemn reinforcing ceremonies prescribed, rigid philosophies and patterns formulated, and so on, until finally an institution was erected. So what originated as one man's intution of some sort of personal fluidity was transformed into solidified, fixed knowledge, complete with organized, classified responses presented in a logical order. In so doing, the well-meaning, loyal followers not only made this knowledge a holy shrine but also a tomb in which they buried the founder's wisdom." (Bruce Lee)
Re: Food for thought JP
This has always been the problem throughout the ages. Someone gets inspiration and others want to follow. The basic problem has always been that the founders didn't develop a methodology for the students to discover how to create on their own. KCD provides this. The groundwork for self discovery has been laid out. The drills and the philosophy work to allow an individual to develop skills which allow a person to react on a primary level. After learning some basic tools students can flow with each other keeping in mind some rules. This at first seems counterintuitive, but it is not. Polishing the sphere as freely as possible, washing the body, and performing the single leg balance drills allow the body to incorporate some of the natural skills that the gifted fighters have. Learning and applying Guided Chaos(tm)can only make a person become intuitive and eventually personally creative. In essence the advanced practitioner can't help but express him/her self freely like no other person can. This creative process can be seen in split seconds of insight on a daily or weekly basis or extended over long periods of time. Whether you keep your elbows up or down is not the matter the only thing that matters is will a movement work at the split second of exhistence. Only the practitioner who is there at that time and space can experience this. Remember external reality based stimulus is key to open clear response. Bruce Lee had the right philosophy but did not live to teach how to learn total spontinaety. One man's truth is not always best for another. Description of events cannot be counted upon to learn the truth of the dance at the second of manifestation for all individuals. You can, with a trained eye, reconstruct a crime scene's events, but all events will change with the introduction of any other protaganist or antagonist, not to mention any subtle change in the physical area concerned. Alas I wax too philosophically. Please meditate on this and see what you can come up with as a response. Maybe through discourse some semblance of clear flowing thought can come about. Thanx for your patience.JP
Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Andy
could someone please explain how you relax antagonistic muscles in say hammerfist strikes?
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Brian C.
Hi Andy, I believe that with "any" strike, the key is targeted relaxation until the point of contact. In the example of the hammer fist, while you raise your fist up in preparation to strike, only your biceps, deltoids, rotator cuff muscles and a few other stabalizing muscles should be firing. Your triceps, lats, pecs, forearm, etc., should be relaxed so that they are not "antagonistic" to the movement you are attempting. At the apex of your rising, relaxed hammer fist, your biceps and delts primarily should instantly relax while your lats, pecs, triceps and associated stabilizing muscles kick in at full force (unopposed). This along with gravity, dropping your weight, body unity, proper breathing etc., will help to accomplish the goal of striking with as much energy as you are capable of. Remember to ballistically tense all of the muscles associated with the strike (too many to list) at the point of contact and only for a split second (to free you up for further movement). Practice slow until you can get a feel for when to contract certain muscles and when to relax certain muscles. As you get a feel for this, begin to increase your speed. The action of your arm should be like a whip with your torso being the handle of the whip. My apoligies to all members of KCD for the above comment, as I am not a member of your organization, yet after reading "Attack Proof", I can not help but to use some of your terminology, methods of explanation and practices. I can't help it, they are truely the most direct and most easily understood (with some practice) that I have come across. Thanks, Brian Cunningham
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Matt Kovsky
One major correction: the "handle" of the whip (and the source of all dropping strikes) is NOT the torso, but the FEET and your rooted connection with the ground. Limiting your untized body movement to the torso is characteristic of many external arts and severely limits power, body unity, balance, looseness and sensitivity. It is the equivalent of trying to crack a whip by holding it in the middle.
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Brian C.
Thanks for taking it even further Matt. You are obviously correct. I chose to use the example of the torso being the handle of the whip as I thought it was a given to all on this website that most everything starts at the feet and your rooted connection to the ground. My mistake. I should have furthered it by stating that it is the hips on down to one's rooted feet (or vise versa) that initiates the cracking of the whip with the torso being only one of the major components of the transfer of energy out to the hand. I also chose the example of the torso as the handle of the whip as it is the most proximal section of the body related to the arm. I should have furthered my analogy by stating that the rooted feet up to and including the waist could be likened to the arm and hand holding the handle of the whip (the torso). This may have made for a more technically correct analogy. However, I was merely attempting to present a short, simple analogy covering a portion of performing a hammer fist to help someone else further their exploration of a technique, not to write the book about performing a hammer fist (you guys have already done that, and its the best book out there). I wanted to join in discussion with all of you by posting to your excellant forum but I did not want to just take one of the extremely thourough analogies out of your book and copy it to Andy. I have found in life that sometimes it takes hearing a principle described in several different ways before I or most others really "get it" and sometimes it is not the most all inclusive description or analogy that causes this event. I think your analogy is the best and most complete. It further helped me to "get it". But the "feet rooted to the ground" as being the handle of the whip might not be easily understood by everyone. After all, analogies are only attempts at elluding to or representing a level(s) of truth regarding a particular issue. An analogy is only as effective as the communicator's access to and ability to express the varying levels of truth about an issue and his or her understandinding of and ability to adapt to the listeners level of comprehension. Very rarely does one analogy speek to the totality of truth regarding an issue in a way that all "get it" in the same way. Also, I'd like to add that we can build upon each others comments without tearing them down first. It only perpetuates that most common of Martial Artist's traits (and most other authorities for that matter), and that is, purvayors of the ultimate truth. There are too many other forums out there dedicated to that. Let me end by restating some things that I have already e-mailed to Attack Proof. It is the best book that I have ever read on the Martial Arts and like any great book, it presents many levels of insight and understanding as to provide something significant for all who read it. Starting with John Perkins, your organization is poised to positively and significantly impact the martial arts community and all with the ears and eyes with which to recieve your message. I look forward to further studying and practicing your methods while bennefiting from the excellant, much needed material that KCD produces. Thanks again, Brian
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles John Perkins
Thank you Brian for your response. I want anyone who is involved with this forum to feel that they are not under a microscope. If myself or Matt or Maj. Al wish to give a slight bit of clarification on a subject please know it is done with only the most highly thought out intentions. Once again thanks for your in depth answer to Andy. Keep up the good work. JP
Re: Relaxation of Antagonistic Muscles Brian
Thank you for your clarification and encouragement JP. Brian
KCD's Anti Shoot Methods
KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Ken
Could someone help me to understand more clearly how KCD handles a wrestler's shoot?
For some reason the idea of eye gouging is somewhat illusive to me because I've seen tapes where a grappler has had NO RULES and the non-grappler attempted this method unsuccessfully. The natural human reflex is to pull the head back and flinch when something is moving rapidly towards the eye and a good combat grappler would know to protect his eyes by tucking his head. If you look at any of the Rickson Gracie fights, when he wants to go to the ground, he'll wrap himself almost skin tight against his attacker in the clinch position while protecting his head and driving backwards until the attacker's back either bends and he falls due to the loss of balance or he simply trips over Gracie's legs while being pushed backwards. In almost every case you'll see the attacker going after Gracie's head but it happens so fast that the fighter is on his back before any damage is done. I've learned and extensively practiced methods that are highly successful against these types of attacks but the problem is that I have to go to the ground and I'd greatly prefer not to do so. Any help with clarity on this issue would be greatly appreciated.
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods JP
You have apparently fell for the basic problem most people fall into when dealing with observing fighting. The first thing to consider is are you fighting for your life. I have seen some of the earlier tapes of Gracie fights. In one fight in particular one of the Gracies used a knuckle poke to his opponent's eye to break a hold. Was that legal? They did not stop the fight for it. The hold was easily broken. Second You may land on the ground if you are fighting one person who tackles your legs. Here is where KCD ground fighting technique is important to know. I presently work with serious shoot fighters who want to know how not to loose their eyes in a real fight. If they stick to basic punches and elbow strikes while trying to hold onto me or Major Al or Tom Barnett or Mike Watson etc. they can easily loose the use of their eyes let alone their life by having a finger dug deep into the brain. The study of KCD utilizes eye gouging for life and death encounters. If anyone believes that he can keep a trained eye gouger from putting their lights out they are sadly mistaken. Here is the funny part. According to the rules of UFC it is OK to strangle your opponent. This on the street would be grounds to kill in self defense. Anyone who tries to choke you is applying potentially deadly force. The practice of putting fingers through eye sockets is important for this purpose. Also the crushing of testicles is practiced to a high degree so as to allow instant access to other targets. Crushing of the windpipe is another technique which is practiced at high speed with proper equipment. Yes you may have to go to the ground during a real fight but you should know how to apply the most devastating methods of self defense to survive. You should not get involved with grappling your way out of a grapplers grasp. I have worked extensively with many grapplers over the years and have not found one who could keep his eyes protected and his groin and throat protected effectively. Most times when I or my fellow KCD practitioners have worked with the ground fighting men they would act as if they were not tagged in the eyes and keep on fighting. I have the ability to keep from causing permanent injury during practice with grapplers. I use food dye on my finger tips to mark their eyelids during the grapple. If they don't acknowledge the gouge my next attack is to the groin where thy can feel the force. If they get further out of hand during practice a good squeeze and twist brings them around to reality. Seldom do I have to go that far to prove a point. If you do not know how to apply a proper eye gouge or other forms of mayhem you should attend a class given by myself or one of the advanced instructors. I am not at liberty to give the names of my shoot/ground fighting students because they do not want to have a problem with the various schools they attend. Some ,however, are willing to demonstrate on other ground fighters in person. Remember that many serious fights involve weapons. If you are attacked on the street by thugs who want to take you to the ground and stab you you must fight like a serious combat war veteran. Anything goes. Basic grappling will only get you killed under these conditions. I am not in all conscience able to put the most devastating methods for ground killing on tape. I simply will not let this information out to the public at large. If you are a military member of the United States and can prove that you are in an active high risk position I and/or Major Ridenhour will teach these techniques and principles to you. If you are a member of a high risk Law Enforcement group the same goes for you. All others do not need this information. There are interim methods that will serve you well enough. I apologize to all who feel that this is too discriminatory but that is all I can do. There are also many "anti-shoot" methods which do not call for extreme mayhem but I am not in the business of sport fighting. I hope that this helps you. Remember I cordially invite anyone who is an accomplished fighter who has a good attitude and respect to contact me personally at email@example.com to work anything out physically. All these events will be video taped and proper releases must be signed beforehand. This is not a challenge. It is only for the gentlemanly exchange of knowlege. Sincerely, JP
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Ken
Thanks for the response. I have yet to get a lackluster answer from you concerning any of the questions I've raised. John, you can make fortunes. There are scores and scores of Martial Artists in dojos, basements and backyards that claim they'll do this and that to a grappler when there are no rules. They always talk about how they'll eye gouge and break fingers, etc. However, when it hits the fan, all of their deadly maneuvers seem to go out of the window. For example, a San Soo person issued a no rules challenge to any fighter and a Brazilian Ju Jitsu fighter accepted the challenge and easily beat him with an Americana armbar. The San Soo person spoke on how grappling is ineffective because you can always apply finger locks, etc.. He later said the Ju Jitsu fighter, John Marsh was too strong. Now, thats not the moral of the story. There were other, higher ranked San Soo people who crosstrained in Brazilian Ju Jitsu that admitted that they would have lost also. In other words, they were admitting that their no-rules tactics which are taught in San Soo would not work against a trained grappler in the street.
In your case, you've actually went to the mat with people who I would suppose are highly skilled grapplers and proven that you can have your way with them without playing the game. Well, when most people get into martial arts, they're really only looking for what KCD offers but get sidetracked when they think it may not exist. So they look into the next best thing, stuff like mixed martial arts, which have proven(even though in competitive, non life and death affairs) that they can be effective. If you were to put a clip on this site of you demonstrating on a skilled grappler in real time you would send some shockwaves through a lot of people, especially in the Martial Arts community. I talk to these guys all the time and they rarely believe that simple tactics like eye gouges, groin attacks, etc, would ever work. In fact I didn't even believe it myself.
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods JP
The proof is in the pudding. One situation in which an eye gouge came in handy was where I and my radio car partner were caught in a deadly fight with multiple assailants on a stairway in a housing project. While I was fending off an attacker who was high on angel dust and fighting from a step above me I was simultaneously trying to keep my partner from getting stabbed by another assailant who was basically on the same step with me. This was a dynamic and chaotic situation. While I kept pressing my hip against the lower attacker's knife hand who was engaged with my partner I realized that I could not reach my handgun in time. So while keeping the upper attacker off balance with my left hand I was able to get my right hand pinkie finger into the right eye of the lower assailant. I did not grapple with these men because on the above landing some extra drug users were on their way down to help them out. As I pushed my pinkie into the slime ball's eye and sunk it to the second knuckle he suddenly went into convulsions. As he fell down I was able to step to my left and pull the upper guy down and allow him to land almost head first on the landing below. This allowed myself and my partner to access our handguns which caused the above bad guys to leave quickly. Thank luck they didn't start shooting. We were lucky that the extra drug punks hesitated. I believe that if they moved foward or descended further that we would have fired in self defense. I found out later from one of my eye surgeon friends that my pinkie must have hit a nerve that runs behind the nose on the inner side of the eye which effects the heart's rhythm. I, at first thought that I had somehow hit the attacker's brain. The point to this long story is that grappling on a stairway with multiple attackers with weapons is a no win situation. Most of the real life and death battles on the street or on the battlefield will kill you if you get caught up trying to wrestle with one guy at a time. Remember--- you never know what the bad guys are bringing to the party. The bad guy who wants to grapple with a cop or soldier has to remember that most law enforcement, military or defensive minded people will have some sort of weapon at hand. Just a pair of hard soled shoes can be formidable if you know how to apply your feet properly. The botton line is this. A contest without rules whatsoever is war. Anyone who attacks you on the street with intent to kill you will use anything to win. This includes not only weapons but his buddies. You will not have judges around. If you are challenged to a street brawl where someone suggests that there are no rules then tell him to meet you at your house and see what surprise he can receive. The B.S. macho bravado that comes from young morons is not to be given any play. If they wish to attack in a felonious manner then they better have God on their side just in case they run up against a real warrior. This is just some sage advice from an old man who has had too many trips to the morgue. Enough said. Take care, JP
HIT AND BEING HIT
HIT AND BEING HIT JOHN PERKINS
THIS IS A QUESTION POSED BY ONE OF MY STUDENTS WHO IS PRESENTLY STUDYING SYSTEMA. IT INVOLVES THE IDEA OF SOMEONE ACTUALLY STRIKING YOU FOR THE PURPOSE OF TOUGHENING YOUR BODY. DURING THE STUDY OF MEDIUM SPEED OR HIGH SPEED CONTACT FLOW ANYONE WHO IS WORKING PROPERLY WILL EXPERIENCE BEING HIT QUITE OFTEN. IF YOU HAVE BEEN PRACTICING PROPERLY THE PROCESS OF ABSORBING BLOWS WILL ENABLE YOU DEAL WITH EVEN THE MOST ADVANCED FIGHTERS EVENTUALLY. JUST STANDING THERE AND ALLOWING SOMEONE TO HIT YOU FOR THE PURPOSE OF SUPPOSEDLY GETTING TOUGHER IS NOT HEALTHY. I HAVE EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE WITH MANY MARTIAL ARTS WHICH DEAL WITH TAKING HITS. NONE OF THEM CAN WITHSTAND ANY SERIOUSLY APPLIED STRIKES FROM AN ADVANCED KCD PRACTITIONER. I WORK WITH UFC FIGHTERS AND PROFESSIONAL BOXERS. THE UFC FIGHTERS HAVE HAD EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SYSTEMA, TAI CHI, BOXING AND EVERY OTHER TYPE OF MARTIAL ARTIST AND HAVE FOUND THAT THEY CAN HANDLE ALL OF THEIR BLOWS. IN A COUPLE OF BOUTS ONE OF THE UFC FIGHTERS WHO WEIGHS ABOUT 240 POUNDS AND WAS ALSO A PRO BOXER WAS ABLE TO USE HIS STRIKING EFFECTIVELY AGAINST SOME UFC FIGHTERS. THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE. DID THE UFC GUYS GET TOUGHER. NO-----THEY LEARNED TO BE MORE ELUSIVE. I PRESENTLY TRAIN SOME SHOOT/UFC FIGHTERS WHO HAVE HAD NO PROBLEM DEALING WITH MOST STRIKES. THEY CANNOT DEAL WITH BEING STRUCK BY MASTER TIM, MASTER BARNETT, MASTER AL, MIKE WATSON, OR MANY OF THE ADVANCED KCD MEMBERS. STANDING IN FRONT OF SOMEONE WHO IS DROP HITTING YOU AT HIGH SPEED WILL ONLY CAUSE YOU INTERNAL DAMAGE OR WORSE. YES-- YOU CAN GET USED TO GLANCING BLOWS BY PRACTICING. IF YOU ARE NOT ADVANCED IN KCD YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH TO GIVE ADVICE TO OTHER NOVICES. PLEASE BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ADVISE. I, AND THE MASTER INSTRUCTORS KNOW HOW TO GET THRU TO PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO BE ABLE TO ABSORB BLOWS. LEARNING TO ABSORB REAL STRIKES, NOT SET UP STRIKES IS NO JOKE. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY (FAKIR) TRICKS. IF ANYONE FEELS A NEED TO BE HIT YOU CAN GET A LESSON WITH MASTER TIM CARRON WHO WILL TAKE YOU TO THE EDGE OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND PAIN WITHOUT PERMANENT DAMAGE. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO RISK MORE, SUCH AS BROKEN RIBS ETC. MASTER BARNETT WILL OBLIGE YOU. PLEASE BE CAREFUL OUT THERE. SEE MY OTHER ANSWER IN THE PHILOSOPHY SECTION ON BEING HIT. GOOD LUCK, MOTHER HEN
Re: HIT AND BEING HIT Rob Green
I believe there is a misunderstanding of the use of recieving blows in Systema that was stated by your student 'who is now studying Systema' - the purpose is not to toughen the participant. I would refer anyone interested in Systemas use of hits and tempering to the article behind this link: http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2234&start=15
Written by one of Vladimirs senior students. There is much misunderstanding of this subject.
If I may quote: "IF YOU ARE NOT ADVANCED IN KCD YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH TO GIVE ADVICE TO OTHER NOVICES". I agree that it takes real experience in any particular art before one can advise anyone else. Further, I would avoid commenting on any individual in a martial art, or any statements attributed to them, if I did not have first hand knowledge of the circumstances - if I did not see it with my own eyes. Maybe thats just me but my experience has shown how easily misunderstandings can happen and there is little to gain.
KCD seems to be an effective methodology - this statement based on my small experience with a few members who train in the method, viewing the fundamentals tape and the respectful commentary I heard myself from Systema practitioners. Perhaps I will be able to experience it myself in the future.
That way, I will be better able to judge the merits of the method for myself.
Re: HIT AND BEING HIT John Perkins
Mea culpa, I must apologize to Alan for my somewhat drakonian reply to his reply to another student. I have that dysfunction called protectivitis. Many friends that I have known have passed on because of lack of knowledge. This may blind me to the learning process that we all go through. I realize that most of the civilian students are not about to go out into the streets or the battlefield to fight against the dragon. Most likely most of you studying KCD or other martial arts won't come up against a serious, malicious and capable opponent(s). My view of the world is probably tainted by too many memories. I will, in the future, try to tone down the level of teaching for those who are not immediately going into harm's way. For those of you who have seen the elephant the intensity will still be there. I know that you will not accept less. Thank you all for your patience. John
Re: HIT AND BEING HIT Rob Green
I understand your passion, sir. I have been slaying the dragons for 18 years now (Rikers Island/NYC Dept, of Corrections) along with other 'interesting' work. Along 'the way' - I also have lost friends and compatriots to the cold wind, some because they relied upon methodologies that were not suited for the task of survival - be it physical, mental or spiritual. I also carry with me the memory of "What if I could have..." to help one who later was lost. I have been riding the tiger (studying Martial arts/combatives) for 40 years and have probably had many experiences that you could relate to.
You are excused, of course, for any display of protectivitis - KCD is your 'baby', and I am certain that you, like I, regard the relationship you have with those that study with you as a sacred trust - and not the superficial drek that is proffered by the recreationalists, dabblers and outright con men that have done such dishonor and dis-service to the warrior ways.
It is said that there are many paths to the top of the mountain - that may be true. Some are winding, some direct - some are false trails though, leading nowhere. As one arrives to the top of the mountain, though, the successful roads merge and meet in a common place. That place is where the warriors meet, share knowledge and experiences and come to be friends.
KCD changed my life
KCD changed my life Dennis Raffa
Hi Master John. I just wanted to tell how KCD changed my life. I have been working with Master Tim for the past 3 years. When I first started my balance was terrible. My balance now has improved 100 percent. Through Master Tim's dedication I am able to do things that I never thought I would be able to do. His knowledge and expert teachiing has brought me to a level I thought would have been impossible. I have increased my sensitivity, balance and overall ability. My life has changed so much for the better. Through working on the ladder and other balance exercises I am now able to live a more normal life. These are some of the things you have taught to Master Tim. So I owe you and Master Tim so much. This is proof that people with disabilities can achieve anything with the right people leading them. I plan to continue to work to improve an achieve even more than I already have. I will be doing this for the rest of my life. Thanks again. I wish you and Master Tim all the best.
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods
Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Carl
Hey Ken, I would have simply replied to you post, but I wanted to put this up as new so more people would be incined to read it
"Could someone help me to understand more clearly how KCD handles a wrestler's shoot?
For some reason the idea of eye gouging is somewhat illusive to me because I've seen tapes where a grappler has had NO RULES and the non-grappler attempted this method unsuccessfully. The natural human reflex is to pull the head back and flinch when something is moving rapidly towards the eye and a good combat grappler would know to protect his eyes by tucking his head. If you look at any of the Rickson Gracie fights, when he wants to go to the ground, he'll wrap himself almost skin tight against his attacker in the clinch position while protecting his head and driving backwards until the attacker's back either bends and he falls due to the loss of balance or he simply trips over Gracie's legs while being pushed backwards. In almost every case you'll see the attacker going after Gracie's head but it happens so fast that the fighter is on his back before any damage is done."
I have a bit of input I'd like to share on the subject. Putting someone's eyes out or digging into them, is a bit of a skill in itself if you ask me. To a degree, it has to be practiced,perfected, and really, it is not just an infallible tactic. There were two situations in my life where fingers to the eyes were involved. The first one, a long time ago, involved someone putting me in a headlock and actually trying to put one of my eyes out with their keys. He didn't get away with it, as I was able to punch and outwrestle my way out his grasp. In that situation, I simply had to rely on other weapons to handle it- but man, I fought for my life to escape that key! As a result "grappling" plus "striking" was beaten by "striking" that day, and both of us were relatively untrained.
The second situation involved yours truly putting his fingers into the head of a very,very big, drunk, and angry (for no reason) guy. I literally pinned his head to the wall with my fingers, but his pain threshold must have been so high, because he was still able to punch me. I was still able to keep digging into the guy's head, but I had a nice bump on my cheek the next day! What does that tell me? Well, for one thing, It would've been better if I had the guys weapons (hands) at the "outside gate" (see various chinese Kung Fu books for a description of this) of me and unable to counter strike. Although the idea of hitting someone is easy, you've gotta up the realism in training in order to make it work in the real world, ie roll hands practice. Just remember- it's a simple concept that someone can get killed by a car, but a lot of people get hit by them dead on and still survive soemehow.
As for those Rickson Gracie fights, well, just the fact that the man KNOWS to explosively leap on his opponent, keep his head down, and stick onto his opponent (does anyone else smell a bit of mastered sensitivity in this scenario?) tells you that eye gouging is in fact a dangerous reality, and the man has obviously trained in a way to avoid this. True, he is a master at avoiding getting his eyes torn out, but he apparently had to work to stop this from happening. This "work" still had given his opponent the momentary advantage, but hey, Rickson Gracie isn't a world champion for nothing.
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods JP
#1 I would imagine that if you pinned a guy to the wall by pushing into his eyes and you did not push your fingers deep into his brain that it was not a fight for real. In other words you were not fighting for your life. If you just press on someone's eyes who is under the influence of a drug such as alchohol you may, if you are careful enough, not cut his corneas with your fingernails and he may not stop due to pain. If you push your fingers deep into his eye sockets you could crush his eyes or if you push further you could penetrate the egg shell thin bone that holds the eye in place and keeps the liquid that surrounds the brain from leaking out. This usually results in some form of incapacitation or death. Yes someone could fight really fast as I have done in the past to protect my eyes. This does not, however, mean that people are going to easily survive a serious eye gouge. Using an eye gouge is potentially deadly. A man was killed while fighting his enraged and insane son while they struggled in the middle of the road on Riverdale Ave. in Yonkers, N.Y. The psychotic son pushed his fingers into his father's eyes and down into his brain. Immediate death ensued. Not too many people have fought very well after they had their wind pipes crushed either. Even the drug crazed go down when this happens to them. My point is this. You can choose to train in any method of fighting but you should know and accept the limitations of any of them. Obviously if a large, strong, fast, well trained man fights with another who is not as large, strong, and fast he will have great advantage over the weaker one. If both are fighting for real as in war then he who gets in the killing strike or neck break in first usually wins. If you are weaker and your opponent is stronger but the stronger insists on using only particular techniques that give him the distinct advantage during a structured bout and you, the weaker person, through no fault of your own must fight for your life, I suggest that you should do all you can to survive. Now if you are entirely not prepared to fight by not training in some form of mayhem producing methodology then you more than likely will fail. Even if you are a professional grappler and a very small man decides to cancel your ticket for real all the grappling practice in the world will not help you. KCD is a warfighting art. This means that you will learn how to create maximum damage to a target as fast as possible. You will learn how to use actual and impromptu weapons of any kind. You will learn how to best actualize your maximum potential to do serious and, if necessary, deadly damage to the attacking enemy. To limit yourself to simply grappling is rediculous. If you knew that a much stronger man was going to try to choke you to death would you not use a weapon? Can a man practice grappling and striking well enough to defend himself against a strong, healthy, fast and armed opponent? The answer is always with fate. Remember that luck usually favors the prepared man. Does anyone wonder why eye gouging, fish hooking, kicking with footwear to the head, throat strikes, full chin jabs, etc. are not allowed in sportfighting? Because if one fighter uses these techniques he will have an unfair advantage over the other while the rules are in use. Yes I have prevented an expert eye gouger from getting me in the eyes during a fight but I expected anything and did the unexpected immediately. If you are on a plane and it is taken over by knife wielding monsters do you try to grapple with them? You will employ any make shift weapon at hand. You will also allow some other passengers to help. You wouldn't expect to just fight by the rules of the ring. Heck the bad guy may not even know how to tap out. Anyone can point out the one time out of a thousand when a bullet hit someone in the brain and did not kill that person. Does this mean that you could take a chance with a gunman. Remember, the fights in Valle Tudo are not to the death. The unwritten rules of Machismo are always in full force. If you defeat your opponent by tearing off his testicles or crushing his wind pipe you have breached the rules and if you win you lose as a man. If a person, such as myself, makes it a profession to teach and in real life apply deadly techniques don't you think, just as in the case of the professional grappler that he would know that people will try anything not to get their eyes removed or their brain pierced. Remember and study the rules of guided chaos. The underground name of Ki chuan do is May hem do. I hope that this has stimulated your imagination sufficienty to maybe get real folks and stop the macho stuff. Remember to walk softly and carry a big stick, knife, gun, hatchet, ice pick, pepper spray, rocket launcher with rocket, invisible friend. Just joking about the stick. Take care, JP
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Carl
In regards to the second situation mentioned above, I have to concede that I was NOT trying to kill the guy in question. This all happened at a bar that I and Ray used to work at, where my "strategy" that night involved shoving the much bigger man's face and then digging (or clawing, now that I think of it) into the eyes to "hold" him up against the wall, so I can shove him out the nearby door. Overall it worked, but not without a lot of ugliness. Perhaps that says that there is a psychological/social componant that will limit the effectiveness of any martial art technique.
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Ken
I believe Rickson Gracie was undefeated in over 300 ring fights at the time. I'm no fan of the Gracie methodology but they released a tape of them fighting no rules against martial artists and other fighters on the beaches of Brazil and the eye gouging from the other fighters was easily nullified through superior positioning on the Gracie's part. What I mean by that is that they never gave the attacker the structure to really dig in because they were either moving too fast or they were driving through the attacker, thus upsetting his balance. Or, they would have the attacker tied up in such a way that by the time an eye gouge was attempted, it was too late. The submission hold was already in place. Of course none of these fighters were skilled in sensitivity, looseness, balance or body unity or they probably wouldn't have ended up in those positions in the first place. For one thing, they became fixated on utilizing that one method and it ultimately caused them to fail. KCD, is more flexible in that the Contact Flow would have you in the mindset to take whats available in a flowing method.
I can think of two grappling matches in particular where I know eye gouging or dirty tactics were probably nullified by the non-grappler himself simply because of their approaches.
The first fight which I thought was interesting, though an obvious exception was a time when Frank Shamrock slipped while backpedalling in a fight and naturally went into a duck walk/knee drop position. His attacker was trying to offensively close the distance and this ultimately lead to his defeat. From the lower position, Frank Shamrock tied the guys legs up and literally shot almost vertically in the air slamming and landing directly on top of the guy. The guy was knocked out instantly upon hitting his head on the canvas and to add insult to injury, Frank Shamrock chopped the guys collar bone and broke it while he was KO'd. This all happened in no less than 4 seconds. That one particular day, Shamrock just wasn't going to lose.
The second was when a Kung Fu San Soo Marine trainer at 140 lbs. fought a no rules fight against a 235 pound grappler by the name of John Marsh for $5000. The San Soo man offensively shot towards the grappler at nearly sprinting speed from about 4 feet away and the grappler never moved. He waited until the San Soo guy was close, swept his legs and basically landed directly on top of the guy by tackling him. I remember looking at some still shots and at one point they were both in vertical positions about 2 feet above the ground before the grappler landed on the San Soo guy, basically slamming the side of his head hard on the floor. This is all happened in about a second and a half. Of course I'm sure it took countless ice packs to calm the swelling. From there John Marsh basically went from cross-body positioning to top body hold/lateral press and back. The poor Kung Fu guy never had a chance to attack the groin, eyes or even throat.
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Carl
I agree that most of the opponents that go up against the Gracies and their like probably don't undergo a lot, if any, sensitivity, looseness and balance training- but I can't really know for sure. The funny thing is is that nobody seems to realize or aknowledge that a fair amout of practice wrestling WILL yield some sensititiviy training. Long before I had started training in KCD, I had done some Judo. We did a lot of randori (stand up and kneeling free form wrestling practice), and the first thing that all the head guys told me to do was really relax and be loose. Unfortunatly, stating this was the most sensitivity was talked about in class, and apparently the only ones who had gotten the sensitivity and looseness thing down where the head sensei's sons and senior students, all who had had quite a bit of constant training. Back then, I didn't grasp the concept of sensitivity, because even though it was grasped on an unconciouss level by the seniors, it was never really spoken about or even conceptualized by the head sensei and his senior students.
I have a theory that guys like Shamrock, Ortiz, and the Gracies ACTUALLY DO HAVE a lot of sensitivity, awareness, and looseness, but it is because they have done what they've do for so long that it is all a relaxed, supple game to their nervous systems. Any of the Gracies will tell you that they've been doing their thing since being in diapers, so by now they are unbelievably sensitive, even without being able to aknowledge what "sensitivity" is. When you apply this sensititvity to explosive action (most of these guys do a lot of plyometric and ballistic weight work), it is no wonder that a 250 plus guys can easily slam an unknowing San Soo guy. For the record, unless the San Soo guy did regular flow-hands type work of his own, it is a sure bet that the "Grappler" in question had a whole lot more sensitivity training in his pocket. All this evidence at the least furthers the argument that it is not the "style", but the fighter and his training. Al, if your reading this, maybe you can comment?
BY COINCIDENCE ALONE....... Carl
Just as we're discussing the of eye gouging, I happen to spot a post from a fitness forum (dragondoor.com) that I read from on boring, rainy days. It just adds fuel to the fire. Enjoy.
Comrades and fellow martial artists...I learned a valuable self defense lesson this morning. I live on Long Island and while driving to work I had this guy breaking and stopping breaking and stopping.....all the while he's waving his hands..We come to a light and he races out of his car..my first reaction was to get out of mine..he starts screaming about getting to close blah blah blah..now I'm thinking..I'm getting married next Sunday..don't get into a brawl..sure enough..he takes a swing...right hand to my head..I moved and used an eye gouge with my left hand.and just caught him...Well he went down right to his knees in an instant..stayed there..then got up and went back to his car..I jetted right after that...he just stayed there..So comrades..Just want to let you know..this technique does work..may not put a guy out completly..but it can give you a bit of time...So now..my mug is a pretty as ever..Thanks..Phil
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods Ken
Great points about the Gracies, Shamrocks and Ortiz's of the world having high sensitivity. Once grappling contact is made, they can actually fight you with their eyes closed. I know this is definitely true for the Gracies. Currently, I think the Gracies are outclassed because the current UFC fighters are much stronger, bigger, faster and have the same ground skills. That being the case, when I saw Sakuraba (Japanese wrestler), beat two different Gracies with a rudimentary version of relaxation, I knew that there was definitely something huge in the concept. He treated them like children.
I actually started this post to get some specific examples of how this situation was handled. That being the case, I'll give an example of a way that I was taught from previous training. I was taught to never resist when someone grabbed me as that would give them structure which enables them to apply some sort of leverage, even if only to pull you somewhere. This concept extended to tackles and even sweeps. For example, in the description that I gave of Rickson locking onto the fighter and driving forward, the victim's own resistance actually gives structure for him to tie up and fall down, allowing Rickson to get the mount. We were taught to simply relax, go with the push while holding on to the attacker and simply rotate in the direction where the force is applied. The result is that you will always be in an advantageous position upon landing where you can break the neck or simply forearm strike the neck/vagus to knock out the attacker as you'll land in a perfect position to do this. All great and very simple concepts by the way.
The problem I had was that we had no intentional sensitivity training which will literally place you miles ahead of someone without it. Also, it was entirely too cooperative because they incorrectly assume that one good kinetic driving strike will guarantee that you'll at least take your attacker off balance. Hence, the drills consisted of you simply manipulating a non resisting, but reacting(who simulates autonomic responses) attacker with further kinetic, driving strikes to simulate the possibility of you missing your targets. The assumption is that if you get nearly chest to chest, your attacker won't be able to defend himself because his limbs will be jammed. The whole idea is to create so much chaos that a fighter using any level of defensive strategy will simply be overwhelmed. They'll be fine so long as they never run into someone that understands concepts like, pocketing, folding, etc., all while managing to continue with their own striking in the midst of the chaos. The strange thing is that I've seen some of the higher instructors do techniques where they would flow with a strike and then attack but they decided not to teach that method as they feared that it would take away from the offensive nature of the system. They are wrong. Contact Flow is hands down the best drill I've seen to teach someone fighting skills.
Re: Re: KCD's Anti Shoot Methods JP
Just when you thought it was safe to go out into the chaos now comes the real nitty gritty. REMEMBER folks, all of this going on about sensitivity is important. It is not ultimately developed for the grappling fight as much as for the real killer. I will say this many times before most of you will wish to accept it. A real attack is sudden from nowhere without much preamble. You may feel the set up comming from one or more attackers if you are lucky and are paying attention. Anything that resembles a duel which is an agreed upon fight with a starting time and some rules is not the same. To deal with the explosive viscious armed or unarmed attack you must be trained in warfighting concepts. You must know how to explode into an attack as well as evade. It is imperative that you receive neuronic training. The actual psycho/physical changes that you will experience such as auditory, visual confusion, time and space consciousness variations and a host of other phenomena will be all part of a real world attack. Grappling is only a small fraction of the knowledge and skill you will need to survive. Just the basics of eye thrusts can take months to master. So you think that grappling on the level of professional grapplers takes just a minute or two to learn? How to avoid being stabbed to death is an art in itself. I don't know how to get this concept to you. Maybe something that Major Al said in one of our classes will help. He stated that all of the moves and concepts and principles of KCD are geared to killing your attacker. Even when you flow and absorb the strike or grab of an opponent you are merely setting up to allow yourself the ability to kill your enemy. An evasion is only a split second away from a return which can contain a crushing blow to the throat, eyes, testicles or any other target. You can always gear down but it is difficult to gear up once a fight begins. I will elaborate further. Your return or your pre-emptive attack will include multiple strikes from multiple angles including verticle horizontal, in fact, any angle you could find inside a sphere. This is wheather you are right side up or upside down or turning someone inside out. Do not limit your mind to the hypnosis of the UFC model. If a trained close combat fighter decided to punch a ballpoint pen into some part of someone's anatomy he would not give him fair warning. Most likely as is true in over 95% of knife fights the victim does not know that he is being stabbed or even cut before it is too late. I am not as worried about a professional sportsman who has dedicated years of training in the ring compared with the prison trained professional attacker who wants to kill me. A true sportsman doesn't usually go around choking innocent victims on the street. Even if he did he would then be obliged to possibly face a not so innocent victim. He may face the trained combat fighter who just might be holding onto his ball point pen and has the skill to slam it into the vitals of a crazed attacker instantly. REMEMBER----who is attacking/defending and what tricks/weapons are they bringing to the party and how many friends have been invited and what is the address of the invitation? I hope this sinks in and then we can have a real world discussion of what works for survival. Never bring a knife to a gun fight and never just punch and grapple with a serious trained killer. You will most likely have no warning of a serious attack in the form of an announcer in a ring. Good luck, JP
Taking the initiative Virgil
I don't know if I'm allowed to post a new message but I couldn't find the rules and regs section anywhere, so I'll post it and you guys can set me straight later. My question has to do with taking the initiative and I'd like to ask it by relating an experience. I'm sure this has been covered many times already, but it is a question that is unanswered in my mind. To make a long story short, I had just had a training day with Kajukenbo and Jack Daniels and found myself coming out of a daze in a subway car that was halted between stations. I looked around and found to my unhappiness that I was alone in the car with three gentlemen who were breaking the windows, tearing down the ad posters, kicking the doors and beating up the car itself. Then they were sitting across from me and a kind of "stare down" took place. I could hear them muttering stuff about cutting my throat and taking me down now. I sat there, not moving a muscle except to blink my eyes to try to quickly and quiety snap out of the daze I was in. I was sensing something bad and had snapped open my cqc7 in my jacket pocket. Needless to say I was scared and my adren was pumping out max. Then one of the men got up and came towards me and he was about 3 inches from my face leaning over me. Every part of my nervous system was screaming plunge that knife into his gut and hop on the other two before they could get up. I had so much adren pumping that my hand was set to go out on it's own. But for some reason my brain overrode and I held back. Next thing that happened the guy looked up at the subway map behind me,laughed and walked away. Now if I had taken the initiative there would be at least one person with a serious gut wound and i would have found myself explaining to the authorities why I was carrying a concealed knife and plunging it into people. On the other hand, if it hadn't been a fake out I could have used every bit of the initiative I could get. Thoughts?
Re: Taking the initiative Carl
Could it have been obvious to them that you were carrying a blade? If so, that, and the fact that they could feel you were ready to fight like mad may have been exactly what warded the guy off. Altough I wasn't there for the exact details, I've seen my share of intimidators. These are guys who, if they see that someone is soft and won't put up a fight, will automatically attack them for the cowardly fun of it. I can tell you that had you tried to talk nicely and plead with them, they most likely would have attacked you. If the guy saw that you had a hand in your pocket and full intent of fighting, then guess what? He saw someone who could give him some real work- something he obviously is avoiding since all he can think to do with his spare time is destroy inanimate objects. No coward wants to deal with any real trouble, and he was probably able to sense that from you. As crazy as this sounds, pumping yourself full of adreneline and getting ready to kill but having the self control to wait for the right moment if it were to come sounds like the best thing you could have done. Think of it this way; have you ever come across a growling dog that you just knew not to come close to or touch because you knew you might get bloodied up? You became such a dog to that guy for a few moments.
Re: Taking the initiative John Perkins
Thanks Master Virgil for sharing your experience. I am sure Carl was right about the slime ball feeling imminent death at your hand. I have had a few situations where just the inner flame of adrenalin kept the hounds at bay. If you were far less trained and a coward you very well may have ended up explaining to the authorities how 3 dead guys were found in the same car with you. Take care, Hope to see you soon at the cane seminar on Nov.9. Your friend, John
Re: Taking the initiative Virgil
Thanks for the replies. I'll see you at the seminar Master John. I'm looking forward to it. I'll bring my bag of gear.
Re: Taking the initiative Ross Makoske
Having the cool, intense demeanor of a preadator, not the loud, agressive qualities in some people ahs kept me out of what may have escalated into fights with two or three people a good number of times. This demeanor kind of casts a shadow of doubt on to opponents.
I have kind of a funny story of a non-serious encounter- in high scool, an english teacher, in the beginning of the year, forcefully put his arm on my shoulder while I was sitting in class. He was taking role, and trying to think of my name. The first thing that popped into my head was an encircling wrist trap. With a modified version, I stuck to his arm and redirected it into my opposite hand, and proceeded to give him a handshake and remind him my name. It was a fun moment.
self defense knives Ross Makoske
I was wondering what the various EDCs are of the people out there. I carry a CRKT Crawford Casper folder (the big one).
Re: self defense knives Tony LoCasto
A great carry knife I have reciently purchased from Greber is the Applegate/Fairbairn Combat floder. (5786 black)
Re: self defense knives Virgil
When I used to carry it was an Emerson CQC7 first production with the full complement of screws. This knife could pry steel but the liners were tight and it was deficient in ease of openning, as I discovered once. Plus, the linerlock supposedly was subject to failure under duress. However, I am still partial to this knife for sentimental reasons. Currently, I am considering buying the above mentioned CRKT Crawford Casper folder (you can't beat it for the price) or the Benchmade AFCK Axis Lock BM806PD2 or, if my feelings don't change about carrying knives, a can of pepper spray.
Re: self defense knives Michael Caccamo
I carry the Benchmade Griptillian, it's a Mel Pardue design, its light, smooth, and its cheaper then most of the Benchmade knives.
It comes in two sizes and you can choose a thumb stud or a thumb hole to open it. It has an axis lock with stainless steel supports on the inside, reversible pocket clip, and it has the most secure grip I have ever felt on any folding knife. The only downside is that you gotta sharpen it up often if you use it as a utility knife. I love the @#$% thing and it is KCD approved. It looks like an innocent utility knife, but Master Perkins assured me that "this is all you need." Plus the blade length is only 3.45 inches...not like some of the knives carried by KCD members... ::wink wink::
Re: self defense knives Ross Makoske
The Crawford Kasper folder is a good knife-my only complaint is that there is a system to lock the linerlock so that it won't fail, but you have to use your thumb to do it. Its also kind of heavy for its blade size.
Re: self defense knives Virgil
This is a little off the topic of this thread but has anyone used the Gunting knives made by Spyderco? It is a knife that opens on the target. I saw a demo of it but wasn't impressed.
Re: self defense knives knife lover
Kershaw has a Ken Onion "Chive Folder" that's 4.8" overall that opens fast as lightning singlehanded. It's 420 High Carbon blade is only 2.5" long. It has a belt clip and all but dissapears in your hand. I love it. If you get a chance check out www.topsknives.com it's great. Strength and Honor!
Dropping power testing and nail hammering. JP
I don't know if this will answer your question properly. Master Kang used to nail ten penny nails into two by fours with his forehead. I have banged heads with him a few times but was not stunned enough to go unconscious. I have banged heads only once with Brian Dolan and saw stars immediately. Does Brian use his head to nail? Seriously, you can develop dropping force by using a slightly soft volley ball. You simply place the ball against a tree or strong wall and practice sudden palm pushes against it. You must not fall backward and you must not let the ball roll sideways. You could practice this while challenging your balance by standing on one foot and experimenting with different positions. Some years ago my brother Danny and his friends were at a Carnival where there was a power testing bag. His friends were able to deliver from 400 to 700 pounds of force. Danny astounded the man who ran the booth by delivering over 1200 pounds of force. My brothers Kenny and Coy could punch harder than Danny. Danny practiced much more. They were natural hitters. I have burst the bladder on the wave bags easily with deep penetrating punches. I am not sure what all of this means as far as dropping energy is concerned. You could practice with the advanced KCD students and see how they absorb your stuff. I know that anyone who does not absorb extremely well will not survive your particular strikes Carl. I only need a little exposure to know what a person can do as far as hitting power is concerned. Remember the human body acts like no other objects. Where I have seen a man on more than one occassion survive and fight after being shot a few times I have also seen larger men succumb to a dropping strike to the torso. Also remember what Brad Steiner has said to me, "There is no good counter to a crushed windpipe". Good luck, JP
Quick question about self defense knives...
Quick question about self defense knives... Mike Caccamo
For Self Defense is a serrated blade more efficient then a straight edge? Is there any difference? Up side or down side to one blade type or the other? Tanto blade more effective? Half serrated? What about grip? Are teeth preffered to rubber grips?
Re: Quick question about self defense knives... Mike C
Any specific knives recommended?
I am considering a few different knives of different types...
The Extra Large Voyager from Cold Steel... not sure of the blade type yet
The SOG ELite Pentagon folder, not sure which size 3.9 is legal, but the 5 inch has more reach...
The Mini Pentagon, but its double sided, not sure of the laws on that...
OR the Desperardo from Cold Steel...
Cheap enough to get rid of? Thats... always good to remember. Heh, you can be a really scary dude when u want to Dave... and I don't mean that in a bad way...
Re: Quick question about self defense knives... Ross Makoske
For a folder, I recommend something that doesn't have a secondary lock system, such as many CKRT knive, and I think some Gerber knives. It seems like one extra thing to do. If you can go to a cutlery store and handle each one, it will definitely help you out a ton. The mini pentagon and desperado are good choices, and the desperado's surprisingly compact for a five inch blade (that cuts like a bigger one). The voyager, to me, is just too big a folder for an EDC- its big enough to be a sheath knife, but its not.
I've been cautious about carrying my knife lately since I've heard a bunch of stories about cops using legal knives as jurisdiction to cause people all kinds of trouble (not using knives on people- getting them from people and going on with "do you know that this is illegal?", "I'll have to confiscate this", or "what were you planning to do with this?"). This has happened to me before- not to badmouth cops, but there are some that abuse their power.
Re: Quick question about self defense knives... JP
So far so good. Most of you have good ideas on what makes a good carry knife. The only thing that I don't like to say which is something some of my more radical CQB buddies say is that the knife should be cheap enough to throw away. This gives one the impression that there is something wrong with the idea of self defense and that one would have to go the route of a criminal. In many states it is illegal to carry certain knives. For instance in Rhode Island the blade must be less than three (3) inches long. In New Jersey you can only carry a knife if you have a specific use for it which is lawful and can be documented. There are more complications than these. You could find out some info by contacting the State police of each state. Some municipalities also have their own standards. New York city won't allow any serrations at all. The blade should be less than 5 inches with a single edge and cannot have a pocket clip. This is still subject to change. My info seems to have to be updated weekly concerning NYC. In most jurisdictions it is given to the police officer to use his discretion as to the dangerous quality of a knife. My advice is this. If you conduct yourself in a mannerly fashion and don't consort with bad people most cops will not bother you. If you find yourself in a dangerous situation and can't escape and feel that a knife will save you then you must do what is neccessary to stay alive. A good sturdy sharp single edge knife of almost any kind will work for self defense. It is the wielding of the knife that will make the largest difference. I have practiced with the Henkle's 8 inch chef knife and have found it to be more wieldy than most. Of course it would not look good if it was found on your person unless you were a chef traveling to work. I had a leather sheath made for my chef knife just for fun. I sometimes demonstrate to my knife fighting buddies how superior it is to most carry knives. It was built for handling. I personally carry a 5 inch sog folding pentagon type single edge blade which works for me. Some of my master knife friends carry 3 inch hooked blades. Remember, in most cases you will not have to duel with another knife fighter. If someone wants to use a knife against you he will most probably not let you see it until you are stabbed or cut. Using the underhand grip that seems to be in vogue is suicide in a duel. You should have your steel out in front of you. If you fancy yourself an assasin then almost any grip will work against an unsuspecting victim. Do not fall for using an underhand grip against a blade forward grip that only works in the movies or against a drunk or mentally slow opponent. We can talk about all sorts of angles of attack and grips. On the subject of grip material. As a forensic expert on homicides I recommend a handle which will not slip with blood on it or excessive sweat. Most hard sharp checkered grips work well. Kraton will slip with blood. Stag with a very craggy surface is not bad. I have personally tested grips dipped in blood in the crime lab for research purposes for possible court testimony. If your knife has a smooth handle you could improve the grip with skate board tape. Remember, whatever you do to alter the handling characteristics of your knife will be taken into consideration in court in the case of an unfortunate situation. You don't want to be characterized as a knife wielding thug who is looking for trouble. Yes the sog or any of the serious knives made for self defense all look nasty to the court. Many blades are small and portable and ,if needed, can be handy. Sometimes I just think of the old adage that it is far better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. You can complain all you like about the situation of carrying a knife for self defense but most likely it will fall on deaf ears. When I travel in hostile territory I carry a cane. Actually I often must use a cane due to some knee and ankle injuries which haunt me till today. A cane must be used properly against a knife. There is an illusion that the cane's superior reach will win the fight. There are some techniques for using a cane effectively against a knife but most of the info out there will simply get you killed. I hope that I have not caused undo confusion to you. I know that this subject is filled with much opinion. On Nov. 9, 2003 you can see the use of a cane against a knife for life and death situations in our cane seminar. We will be holding a knife seminar this winter. Good luck, JP
Adrenaline Dump Greg Pearce
I was recently visiting two different web sites (Lethalo.com and Street-selfdefense.com)regarding street self-defense. Both sites discussed something called an "adrenaline dump." One of the web cites states "natural effect of real aggression causes what is called an adrenaline dump. The effects can be devestating if we are not prepared for it." How important is it to properly understand how to handle an adrenaline dump in the face of a potential or real violent encounter? Is preparing for an adrenaline dump a part of KCD training? Looking forward to a response.
Re: Adrenaline Dump John Perkins
All of KCD training is based on the premise that people who engage in mortal combat will experience Adrenaline Dump. You will not escape the psycho/physical changes that will instantly occur during serious combat. Having a built in plan to deal with chaotic violence will help you to use the supercharged power you get with the AD. I am an adrenaline junkie. I don't get my kicks from jumping out of a plane, but it is exhilarating. Mine used to come from combative danger. Keeping your head during the chaos of the pre fight loud posturing and deescalating a conflict even turns me on. If you are instantly attacked without warning and have no time to second guess yourself and are not knocked out you will fight explosively with KCD training. If you are stalked and have some time to put together a strategy of escape you will be more able to keep a clear head. Once a fast attack come your way you will revert to your KCD training which uses the most natural attack/defensive movements possible. If someone is trying to intimidate you you will turn your fear into righteous indignation. How dare you try to intimidate me or attack me will echo in your mind and you will attack the attacker instantly. You may get loud first and bark back but you will be well capable of biting. One difference is that your bite will be more like a Grizzly than a dog. This is just a bit of psycho focus material for you to use. Good luck, JP
WW2 combatives Ross Makoske
I was wondering about world war two combatives- the Fairbairn and Applegate methods. I assumed that all of it was written down in Get Tough and Kill or be Killed. But now that I've heard of these CQB masters, I assume that there must be more to them. What else is included in the systems besides whats in the books?
Re: WW2 combatives John Perkins
Basically speaking, during WWII and since there have been quite a few former military and other instructors who have taken the basics of Kill or Get Killed and have worked out various methodologies that have remained within the scope of the originators of CQB. One of the more well known instructors is Charles Nelson who had been teaching in NYC until a few years ago. There are some others who are named in ATTACK PROOF. I know some of the better instructors of CQB personally. If you would like an historical background you may contact Prof. Bradley Steiner and purchase some of his written information about some of these experts, most of which have performed admirably in the battlefields throughout the world. Some of the highly skilled serious instructors that I know would not like me to print their names on a forum. If anyone wants to contact one of these men you could contact me directly at firstname.lastname@example.org. In KCD much of the original CQB taught is used for the basic striking methods. I also teach a course that is mostly based of CQB which is called Close Combat Karate. This is my own version of basic military CQB and includes hand to hand, knife, stick and gun. The first section of ATTACK PROOF is based on CQB. I usually teach some form of basic Close Combat Karate to my beginning students so that they may have a viable method of self defense until they learn the flowing, inner and external principles of KCD. KCD was developed originally to defeat CQB and the traditional arts as well as the street trained and prison trained fighters. I hope that this has not caused too much confusion. Keep your eyes and mind open. JP
Re: WW2 combatives Big Tom
If anyone out there wants to see some WW2 type combatives performed scientifically you could go to www.gutterfighting.net. This is one scary site. Mucho dangerous. I believe that one of the top guys has worked with Master Perkins. You could get a great deal of info on the WW2 stuff here. Just a thought.
Re: WW2 combatives JP
Thanks for the info. The actual site is www.Gutterfighting.org. This site is operated primarily by Carl Cestari. He is one of the most learned men on WW2 CQB. He is like a real field scientist when it comes to research and application. Much valid real world fighting methodology can be learned from him. I know him personally. He is the Boogy Man to most wanabee hand to hand schools. This includes most of the stuff from foreign lands. I would post most of the modern methods and state directly that they are not up to snuff. The reason I don't is that I don't want to get bogged down with bulslhit. Most of what you can learn from Mr. Cestari's site and writings and videos is solid, well thought out and viable for real blood and guts combat. I will stick my neck out and state that my main source of WW2 combative information comes directly from Prof. Bradley Steiner. He wrote about 30 books on the subject of serious killing. He is one of, if not, the most prolific writers concerning real close combat. The most prolific gun writer today is a poor sham. I will not mention his name but he knows who he is. I will say that no one today in the military, law enforcement, after market military, "official military" from any military specialty, from any country, can match what these men will teach about Close Quarters Battle. There is a direct link on our contacts page for Combato(r) which is founded by Prof. Steiner. I want to thank my uncles who first taught me the methods of Kill or Get Killed which put me on the track of men who could teach real world close combat war fighting. Once you read or watch what these men teach you will understand where much of KCD came from and why I and the other master instructors teach so intensely. Nothing out there today from the new wave of military or law enforcement including most of those who are using older name domestic or foreign styles of CQB is in their league. This stuff is not only meant for short time training. You can practice this methodology for many years and just get better. Most of my shooting methods are based on what these men teach. My method of getting a person to perform the same thing may be different but the end result is essentially the same. This is the plain truth as I know it to be. Many of my serious experienced friends and instructors also know this. Don't let the idea that it is from WW2 and somehow not relevent today get you off track. These men have kept this information alive and practical for today's battlefields. Keep your eyes and minds open, JP
Gun Disarms Ken
Does KCD gun disarms acknowledge the military drop and/or the fielf of fire?
Basically, for those that don't understand the terminology, the military drop is an acknowledment of the push/pull principle. If someone attempts to disarm you, you immediately step/drop back. If the attacker is holding your weapon, and you do this, the weapon will automatically point to the attacker's centerline for an instant shutdown of the nervous system once the weapon is fired. In that same vein, I was taught to never do strikes or leverages during gun disarms that push the attacker backwards (strikes above the solar plexus). The reason, according to my previous training was that you would unintentionally create the dynamic that I listed above. If the attacker has the presence of mind, he can drop as soon as he realizes that he is being disarmed even if you've struck him with an incapacitating strike.
Field of fire is the acknowledgement that other innocent people may be in the vicinity of the gun disarm and that would mean that you would be cognizant of all angles the gun is pointing towards during the disarm in case the gun went off.
Re: Gun Disarms John Perkins
This is one example of what I call he said she said. What I mean by this is in most martial arts training a person will show a certain technique and the other will come up with a proper counter to that technique. In the application of gun or knife disarms danger is greater. There are many schools of thought about how to deal with a person who is trying to control you with a weapon. Most of the methods suffer from the complication principle. The disarms are just too complicated and don't take into consideration the extreme amount of variables involved with a life and death situation. One of the variables considered in KCD is just the one you mention called the military drop. Remember most people will try to drop away and pull a gun or knife away a defender. This is almost an unconscious movement. I have witnessed this a few times as a police officer. Even the untrained will fall backward or fall to the ground while a gun grab is taking place, especially if the grab is faulty. You must also take into consideration that the assailant may not be properly disabled by a blow. One of the worst things beside trying to perform a complicated wrist twist or large Aikido flowing step around is to strike with a pushing effect. If you know how to get off line from various positions and can administer a blow or series of blows to you gun/knife wielder you must strike deeply and quickly and sometimes many times while keeping the weapon off line and insuring that your opponent cannot get distance from you orpoint the gun back at your body. Mostmartial arts schools teach for use against knife or gun against the body. the majority of gun/knife wielders who are trying to control you or use you as a hostage will hold onto you with their free hand in some fashion or other. This includes holding around the neck in a one arm choke type hold while the gun or knife are placed against your head or throat. Most of the training in the dojos are for the simplest type of presentation of the weapon against the victim. The most common for practice is the gun or knife pointed at your heart or solar plexus or to the front of your head. Unfortunately this is not the most common method applied by the street, military, police, or prison trained thug. The same applies to the gun or knife held to the back of the head or back. The practice for these techniques is good to do but most of the bad guys will hold with the other hand, as I said. The military drop is easily applied against people who try to twist the hand or wrist of the gun or knife holder. As far as the people around you are concerned you must take into consideration that any technique that you may apply to disarm an aggressor can fail and cause harm to others. There are techniques that will minimize this risk but it is still a risk. You are the only one who can make a decision to disarm or not. You must receive a signal from the perpetrator that he is about to kill you or others before you act. One of the main signals is if the bad guy(s) are only interested in goods or money and don't act too crazy give them what they want. If they start to try to bring you to a new location you have a very good chance of being shot or stabbed when at a new location. If you are involved in a home invasion then all bets are off. You and your family are in grave danger. Here the best thing is good prevention. Dogs, alarms, strong locks and all reasonable security measures are neccessary to obviate the situation. It is far more difficult to perform your disarms with your family around. Don't forget that many bad guys travel in pairs or bunches. Here is where extreme ability will maybe allow luck to go in your direction just a little. I could write chapters on disarms alone. I suggest that you attend my next weapons defense seminar which will be held this winter. I will post the dates when it is a go. Enough for now. Good luck, JP
Re: Gun Disarms Ken
Hello Master John, there are several people that I've informed of this site who visit regularly. I confidently told them that I much prefer the approach of KCD's hand to hand as well as edged(knives) and impact(clubs,sticks) weapons training. The lone aspect that I hesitated on was gun disarms. The knife disarms I was taught were entirely unrealistic and could easily get someone killed. The impact training was OK and even good at times, but not as effective as what I saw you all doing. In fact, they think that they have counters to every conceivable attack but when you introduce the variables from KCD, the whole system practically breaks down.
As you know, I generally disapprove of doing leverages in hand to hand or hand to weapon combat. The lone aspect that I can deal with leverages is from a static position such as during gun disarms. I was taught gun disarms from many angles and positions, including the attacker holding me with his free hand while being practically chest to chest and was also taught to never strike during gun disarms. I was satisfied with the leverages given because they never attacked the wrists but instead targeted the elbow/s. These were extremely simple gross motor movements and probably easier and more controlled than strikes. I prefer gun disarms that take no more than 2 or 3 movements and don't involve any small motor movements. Even though it takes quite a bit of practice, they gave enough options that a skilled practitioner could probably consciously control the field of fire. Also, we only did the military drop when armed with a gun because falling down with a knife wouldn't serve the same purpose as when you fall and have a projectile weapon such as a gun. However, and to you alls credit I noticed that you all were applying gun disarms from behind in much closer positions than what I was shown in previous training. In the area of gun disarms, I guess I'll definitely retain what I already know and combine it with the knowledge I get from you all as well. Of course there were other things that I decided to keep but for the most part it was overlapping knowledge.
Re: Gun Disarms JP
Don't forget if an assailant has a knife and falls down while you are fighting in an elevator or on a stairway landing he can still reach you and may cut you in a bad place before you can react. I have seen the result of this in one of our housing projects. The other time was in a grocery store where there was very little room to maneuver between aisles. Two men were attacked by one man with a knife during a sloppy hold up attempt. One of the defenders was able to slam the knifer with a can of soup on the head ahd face while his partner had the knifer by the neck and the knifers arm from behind. The knifer was high on drugs and drink. After being struck on the head he seemed to go ballistic and fell backward slamming the guy holding him from behind into the shelves. The knifer somehow got loose enough to fall downward and cut the man in front of him squarely in the right femural artery. The knifer then started flailing with his feet and knife. He cut the other man on the lower leg and hand before the man could escape. The man who was cut in the femural artery ran to the back of the store where he died within a couple of minutes. The knifer had a fractured skull and broken teeth etc. He was arrested later at gunpoint and even resisted until subdued. I worked on the homicide scene personally and helped to reconstruct it for court. Now these two defenders were not from a martial arts background. The one who was able to grab the knifer from behind had some military training and was a Vietnam vet who had seen some real action. He also wrestled in High School. The other defender was just trying to help the store owner out when the knifer pointed his knife at him and backed him up and into the aisle. Had the defender known how to control the knifer's arm with a leverage hold and allowed the knifer to get closer to him to apply it he might have lived provided that he applied it correctly. His large friend who grabbed the knifer from the rear thought he knew what he was doing which was effective and to his credit was brave and did manage to grab the smaller knifer around the neck and pull the knifer's arm straight out and rearward while holding the arm under his armpit and his hand curled under gripping above the elbow. This was a great maneuver but the knifer was oblivious to pain and didn't know how to properly cooperate. This should have worked in the favor of the defenders but something went wrong. Adrenaline combined with the pain killing effect of liquor and PCP caused an otherwise great technique to fail. Had the first defender just run to the back of the store along with his big friend they may have found the metal mop bucket and long handled mop and used them to good effect. But wooda, cooda, shooda, doesn't help much now. The owner of the store had a gun but all was over before he got his wits together and got it in play. Two men have guilt to this day and as far as I know the knifer may be out on parole by now. ---Interesting stuff eh?
Re: Gun Disarms Ken
Wow. Excellent story. Looking forward to more of them. If that guy is out on parole, thats truly terrible. Now that you've mentioned it, going to the floor with a knife would definitely give you easy access to the femoral artery. Thanks.
Re: Gun Disarms Barry Reitman
As one of Master Perkins' more cerebral (translation: less talented) students, let me tell you that you have a treat in store if you can attend his gun disarm seminar. About a year ago he devoted a regular Saturday morning session to the topic. As with all the other components of KCD, it is stunning in its simplicity, and leaves you with that "Duh, why didn't I think of this" feeling. And as with all of KCD, it is based on practical and useful concepts, not a list of rote maneuvers.
striking mechanics Ross Makoske
I'm looking for some superficial mechanics answers, and the answers I have received at this forum have been very in depth, scientific, and unbiased. This is kind of an Ask Major Al question, but I'm not sure what his status is.
The first I was wondering about was concerning edge of the hand strikes- why is it, in Get Tough, that the palm up (inward) chop was not utilized?
The second: I've been taught to headbutt with the hairline at the center of the forehead, but I read an article that this is a bad striking surface, because 1. there is protrusions at the inner skull in the front and the back (and I assume across the whole length, but anatomy books don't show this odd angle) that accomodate the valley between the two halves of the brain, and direct jostling with a hairline headbutt is very bad for this. 2. It is common for the skin to break and bleed into the eyes, making ti dificult to see. The article said that, therefore, the side of the head is the better striking surface because even if it bled, it wouldn't get in the eyes. The first issue seemed to me that, however, it would be worse to hit the brain against the protrusion sideways, as there's no groove for it. The blood thing didn't seem to be a real big issue, but I haven't had any experience in headbutting a person. Also, wouldn't the alignment of the spine be off if you hit with the side of the head? I was inclined to disagree with the article, as John Perkins has done so much research and had so much experience in the field of combat.
Question Three: I've heard different people up in arms about the striking surface when punching. The more traditional martial arts like karate, tae kwon do, chang chuan, and other primarily "long range" martial arts utilize the first two knuckles. Other martial arts, (wing chun, bareknuckle boxing) utilize the bottom three knuckles. Some UFC fighters teach to punch with the whole fist, to avoid damage to the hand bones. I learned with the first two knuckles and then started using the bottom three a little when I was going through iron hand training. It seems to me that either works as long as the wrist is aligned with the hand, but if yo grip a bar, the bottom three are aligned with the wrist. Is there a superior fist position, or in what circumstances is which better? Kempo teaches the use of both types I believe, but I don't know why.
Re: striking mechanics John Perkins
To answer your questions I first want to state that Major Ridenhour's usually ready to answer questions on this forum and on the Ask Major Al section. When he is not in town, so to speak, I usually take up some of the slack. Since he is a Master in KCD and Close Combat Karate it would be presumptuous for others to answer in his name. To answer your mechanical questions. The palm upward edge of hand strike (looks like a waiter serving a bowl of soup)presumably to the side of the neck does not get much play in the book GET TOUGH. I don't know personally why it is not covered. It is a valid strike but is more difficult to deliver than the horizontal palm down edge of hand strike. It takes more coordination to deliver properly. Usually when a person is in the position to throw a palm upward edge of hand strike he is also in a position to use the same hand as a cross over palm strike to the side of the jaw or temple. It is easier to clear the shoulder and get more weight into this strike. Now if you utilize the palm upward strike with an angle or approx. 45 degrees to the side of the neck as you are dropping forward into an opponent you will find this to be easier to perform with authority and rapidity using the same hand for multi drop striking. This is especially true where the other hand is somehow ingaged in another task such as pushing down or pinning back a weapon or attacker's hand while driving forward and assuming that the palm down position is not available due to angle or other consideration.
Your question about the use of the front head butt vs. the side of the head head butt is puzzling. First of all the front ot the forehead at the so called hairline is the strongest part of the head. You also have less chance to have your brain slip in the cradle causing you to go unconscious. Using the side of the forehead has some purpose as a sort of slashing motion against an opponent's temple or jaw line or maxillary hinge area, especially while engaged at chest to chest distance and caught in a grapple while your hands or elbows are otherwise engaged. As far as blood is concerned I feel that if a solid head butt against an opponent's nose or side of or rear of head (not against his hairline)when available is worth the risk of bleeding if it will cause an immediate end of hostilities. When applied properly using dropping force and hunching the shoulders forward into the strike the head butt can cause a quick knock out. The sneakily applied head butt such as the method used by some of my European friends like George the Greek is a good preemptive strike when caught in very close quarters. As far as punching is concerned both the two knuckle Karate punch and the three knuckle strike of Wing Chun are valid for combat where neccessary. The use of the full fist strike allows for more variation and in most cases allows for a more advantageous application of dropping force. The two knuckle punch usually is applied with an attendant twist of the forearm which creates a great amount of punching power for the apex of the punch applied also with the twist of the pelvis and driving of the shoulder. This is good if you don't have the dropping ability or are using it in a tournament where drop punching is not allowed. The 3 knuckle punch is good as a punch to the head in general. This is especially true if you are using the rapid circular forward punch flurry while attempting to overwhelm your opponent's hands while driving forward. In most cases I don't advocate using a punch to the head when a palm heel strike or edge of hand or hammer fist strike is available. This is because you can more easily insure a stronger transfer of power against the opponent without causing damage to your fist or wrist. Yes the fist has a bit more range than the palm heel strike but when you are in a life and death struggle you want to apply the most force in the least amount of time. Striking against the body with a full fist more easily facilitates the use of dropping force. The hook punch to targets such as the ribcage or the arm pit or kidney or spine etc. is better done using the first 3 knuckles or flat of the fist, especially while drop punching. The head and neck targets are the most vulnerable and most often attacked. The use of body strikes are secondary. Accessing the head/neck targets is paramount in a split second fight. If the head or neck are not available the secondary targets such as the groin, solar plexus, knees etc. usually will be attacked with elbows knees or feet or flat fist drop punches and side of hand or hammer fists. Don't forget one of the most important striking areas; the eyes. Now this is another topic known as eye gouging. Enough for now. Take care, JP
Hello Sensitivity John F
I've been in KCD for almost a year now and while I "understand" the principles when explained by our great staff, I feel that I've been slow to pick up on the application of the principles, especially during contact flow.
During Monday night's class, I was in contact flow with one of the black belts. Although we were moving at a speed that was just slightly faster than that recommended, I couldn't believe what was happening. Although,as a beginner, I'm accostomed to receiving more than I give, he was landing palm strikes,etc one after the other on me, seemingly without effort. But the scary thing about it was that I wasn't even SEEING his hands before they landed on me.I now understand why KCD is sometimes referred to as "Ghost Fist". Astounded, I asked him "how are you doing that?" He said that because of sensitivity, he knew what I was going to do even before I did it, and simply acted. For me, it was kind of an "AHA! moment". I had read the book and learned about it in class, but this was the most dramatic demonstration of sensitivity that I have experienced. Too bad it wasn't MY sensitivity, but I guess you can't have everything.
Re: Hello Sensitivity John Perkins
Sensitivity is one of the more important elements in KCD. While the close combat portion of our art is easy to grasp and perform in a short time. Becoming sensitive to various changes in the attackers angle of attack, balance, timing, speed and many other variables is the road, albeit for some longer than others, to mastering the chaotic movement which is part of most real blood and guts fights. The principles of balance, looseness, evasion within a small space, and dropping power for maximum striking power are the easiest to aquire. These alone will seriously enhance most martial/close combat movements. You will even, over time, become more graceful. Sensitivity, especially at high speed, will allow what seems to be sixth sense type of movement against an opponent. I and quite a few of my friends and students have found sensitivity to work in real fights while pumped with adrenaline and all the attendant psycho/physical stuff is going on. Yes it takes time to develop these attributes. Many people spend much time practicing the simple kick, punch, trip and throw techniques. They spend years learning and perfecting them. Why not learn to develop sensitivity at the same time. Most of the practice for the "simple" systems deals mostly with what I call he said she said methodology. This is where one person attacks, during practice, with a prescribed technique while the defender counters with a particular answer to the question/technique. First of all this is a recipe for disaster. As I have shown in thousands of cases you cannot respond to a serious blinding fast attack with some memorized technique in time. Get good at the principles and you will respond to attacks with far greater speed and with something resembling a life saving defense. The more ingrained your ability to perform the main principles becomes the more sensitive or aware you will be to your bodies place in space while dealing with gravity, centrifugal force and many other variables. Sensitivity practice will enhance each of the principles individually and as a whole. I hope this is not mysterious sounding. It is merely neuronic training on a high level. Thanx for your post. JP
Hand to Hand and Shooting Klondike
I would like to get some input from an expert on the use of a handgun for self defense and just how one goes about dealing with someone who attacks with their bare hands while I have a pistol and am trying to secure same. How do I handle someone who may be far stronger and larger than myself and keep him from taking my weapon. Does the fact that he is trying to get my weapon allow me to shoot him in self defense? Thank you for anything you can tell me. The Eskimo
Re: Hand to Hand and Shooting Major Al
The real expert here on bare hand to handguns is John Perkins, everything that I know about going from a dead start to drawing a weapons "for real" I learned from him, which is sad considering that I’ve been in the Marine Corps for 16 years, and you would think they would know this stuff but they don’t. Like with most law enforcement handgun courses even in the service this stuff is taught as if the bad guys are never going to charge at you with everything they’ve got, or that you will be able to “struggle” over the gun like they do on TV. This is utter nonsense that will get you killed.
The first thing is you have to be able to move and use your hands to possibly fend off an attacker while protecting your gun. This may mean striking to the throat, face or neck while stepping off line with your non-shooting hand or back away long enough to buy yourself time to draw your weapon. Even if he is bigger and stronger as long as you remain illusive it should buy you enough time to draw your weapon. Also as far as shooting in self-defense only you can determine when it is appropriate to fire in self-defense, not the police or anyone else. Remember when you’re the one in the line of fire you have to do whatever you can to stay alive.
Another technique is to immediately drop to the ground with your feet facing your attacker on the opposite hip from your gun side. Next while on your side and using your feet to fend off the attacker you are now able to draw your weapon while keeping them off of you. Thus allowing you access to your weapon.
However, doing these techniques obviously takes practice and must be practiced under a competent instructor, until they become a subconscious response.
Also, one must learn to “point shoot” using their natural point of aim since in a real gun battle at close range the sites are virtually useless given that they not only narrow your field of vision but require too much time to acquire your target, and that’s if the target is not moving. If the attacker is moving at close range forget about it. Your gun sites are totally useless. This is “fact” and something that is very hard for many people to accept but has been proven countless times.
There is a book called “Shooting to Live” written in the 1930’s by Lt. Col. William Fairbairn with a forward in the book by legendary OSS instructor and former ranking member of the International Combat Martial Arts Federation, Col. Rex Applegate which lays out the historical basis for the system that John Perkins has developed. The book was reprinted in limited supply 1990 by the Marine Corps doctrinal publications division as a historical document under the title “FMFRP 12-81 Shooting to Live.” John and I actually own copies of this rare book, probably the last two in print because I haven’t seen it anywhere else, which meticulously describes the differences between bogus “feel good” shooting courses and a course of instruction designed to keep you alive. Hopefully with enough interest sometime in the near future John will put together another course.
Palm Heels vs. One and Two Joint Strikes Ken
I understand that we accept the idea that a palm heel is superior to a closed fist strike based on the fact that having an open hand allows you more angles of attack and increased sensitivity. I also accept the idea that a palm heel is superior to a conventional fist in combat. However, I think a certain aspect of this should be tested. In past training, I rarely if ever used my hands in positions besides one joint strikes to the head and two joint strikes to the torso, so this is somewhat ingrained in me, although I did use open palms for throat shots.
Heres the test. Utilize a triangulated wrist, the way that Matt's wrist is positioned in the book (very important). Ball up your fist tightly, otherwise upon impact your fist is going to compress to its maximum tightness before any power is able to be transferred, just as the book says. While doing this be sure to stick out the first joint from the knuckle of the middle finger enough that it sticks out more than the flat surface of the fist. In other systems, I believe this type of fist is called a dragon punch, I'm not sure, maybe I got that from one of those crazy Kung Fu movies.LOL. Anyway, press this joint against any part of your body, whether its your temple, jaw hinge, neck, collar bone, ribs, whatever. For the two joint variation, simply stick out the joint of the index finger as well as the middle finger. For some odd reason, I always felt this added some extra stability and seems to prevent even the slightest compression upon impact, not sure why.
Next, press these same areas with a palm heel. Feel the difference? In my experience, I felt a lot more pressure and significantly faster from the one joint or two joint because its a smaller surface area. Anyway, I think its a great option to add to ones arsenal, by no means am I suggesting that it replace palm heels. I only raised this issue because I've never heard it mentioned around here, be it good or bad. Master Perkins, am I missing something?
Re: Palm Heels vs. One and Two Joint Strikes JP
The se of the middle knuckle strikes is something that I learned and worked with extensively during my days of Kung Fu training. I also used some of this methodology during training in pressure point application. During real adrenaline filled fights I have not been able to make this type of strike work. I believe that the bad guys were unable to feel the pressure points and when I tried a middle knuckle strike to my opponents' heads or torso they probably didn't know that they were supposed to feel it. I am able to break a one inch thick piece of pine with my finger tips in mid air and able to use the dragon strike against same. The mistake most people make in training is that they believe that if something hurts when applied in the dojo it will hurt in the street. This is wrong in most cases. A middle knuckle strike to the eye will work and a half fist strike to the throat will work but these are not so asily formed during a real fight. Your fingertip is more likely to get into an eye during a fight. You may apply a throat strike using your finger tips in a spearhand strike. It is faster and easier. If you are relying on pain compliance to win a fight you can loose pretty easily. I can easily perform many of the pressure point methods but in a life and death situation they don't work. Try to apply a pressure point to an enraged attacker who is bent on your destruction and if you survive let me know how you did it. I guarantee that a well placed palm heel strike to the head will serve you better. Ifyou are sparring in the class room and strike your training buddy with a middle knuckle strike to the ribs or solar plexus it will have an effect because he is probably not under serious adrenaline. If you apply a drop punch to the center line of your opponent and try to form the middle knuckle strike you will not transfer enough power to shut down your opponent. Yes if you want some penetration I suggest that you apply the supported thumb strike. It is more stable and more natural to form. I have use the middle knuckle position when I wished to make a person move from one place to another when working as a body guard. Pushing the middle knuckle against some areas of the body will get someone's attention provided they are not expecting it and are not under adrenaline. If the person moves and decides to escalate a drop strike to the body or palm heel to the head usually stops further aggression. Thanx for your post, JP
11/14/03 at 06:38:33
Battle Ax Box Step Balance Drill
Battle Ax Box Step Balance Drill Ken
In the 2001 seminar, Major Al had an 8 pound sledgehammer. Is that the ideal weight for this drill? Thanks.
Re: Battle Ax Box Step Balance Drill John Perkins
The battle axe boxstep can be started off with just a stick. You can build up as you go along by adding larger, heavier sticks until you get to the 8 pound sledgehammer. I have two very large circus mallets which weight in excess of 12 pounds and have longer handles for the truly mighty among us. I can't wield them any more due to a permanent injury that I have. This step is also great to work with a claymore. If you are interested in using a large sword this is one of the first steps for developing balance and strength that I teach. After a while you can make most big blades whistle in the air as they move at a blinding speed. Another side benefit to this exercise is that your edge of hand strike will have quite a bit more power along with your follow up chin jab. Remember to start slowly and build up gradually to avoid injury. This exercise is just plain fun and builds up tremendous stamina. I know that most fights end in seconds but why not develop more stamina than most people can using their aerobics. This is beyond aerobics. This is one of those tiny life altering exercises. If you get to the point of the circus mallets you may never come back to the civilized world again.
Re: Battle Ax Box Step Balance Drill Major Al
As John states you’ll want to started off with just a stick and then build up as you go along by adding larger, heavier sticks until you get to the 8-pound sledgehammer. When he first started me off on this exercise I started literally with a broomstick, then moved on to believe it or not, a tree branch that was about 6 feet long and 2” inches in diameter. Even with the broom stick John emphasized not how fast I could move with the stick but ensured that my “whole body” was coordinated with the stick so that everything flowed as one.
This is much more difficult than it sounds because you instantly begin to see just how out of sync you are from your hands down to your feet. This exercise, which I still do to this day, is critical to developing the kind of body unity that allows you to strike with tremendous force from any position while seeming to hardly move at all. From there I progressed to a wheel barrel handle then finally the sledgehammer. I would start off even with the broomstick, moving “excruciatingly slow” and then work my way up to moving in a flowing graceful fluid manner.
Now, at even higher levels in order to really bring my skills up, I was given a “real axe” that was once owned by John’s father to work with. The head on this axe was so sharp he had to actually pad it for me “just in case.” Trust me if you saw this axe head you’d know that it was a mistake you would only get to make once. I would then do the box step and “flow” with this axe under his supervision as he pointed out the salient points in order to help me develop not only greater balance, but power in all of my strikes as I stepped. So no matter where I stepped I was forced too be rooted along with having good body unity in order to perform this exercise with the axe, thus the term “battle axe box step.”
I was then instructed to step in various directions while maintaining balance. As an extra “bonus” if you will, I was then told to bring the axe higher with my elbows at least shoulder height, and as I stepped I was to “lightly” touch the leaves of this tree that I was working near with the axe head. The object was to touch the leaves with this heavy axe head so lightly that I did not disturb any of the other leaves on the same branch. Oh and by the way I was to do this while moving my whole body in unison. Needless to say that my shoulders almost exploded from this, while this sounds like it takes long to do this the whole axe session only lasted about five minutes.
You should at all times have a firm grip on the hammer allowing your body to drive the motion of the object whatever you use. As you flow you should feel this mostly in your legs, if your upper body begins to get tired that means you are not using your whole body. As John states and I can attest to it this is truly one of those “tiny life-altering exercises.”
Good luck and enjoy.
11/19/03 at 11:14:02
SCARS and ATTACKPROOF
SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Kevin
Hello. I have begun investigating the Attackproof system. I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who has trained in both systems to compare and contrast them. I know very little about the Attackproof system at present (I am waiting for the book to arrive and am planning on ordering the new video tape when it becomes available),but have trained in the SCARS system. Thanks for your help.
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF John Perkins
The main thing that SCARS has in common with Attack Proof is jargon. They like us and many others claim to be the last word in self defense. I have worked with a number of students who have trained in the SCARS system and have found them to be about as informed as most of the higher level close combat practitioners. Much of the information I have seen on some of the SCARS videos closely resembles Prof. Wally Jays Small Circle Jiu Jitsu. Ki Chuan Do is very different from most of the combatives systems in that, as you can read on this website, we don't practice as if someone will attack in a prescribed manner. We know that no one can know precisely what will transpire in a serious adrenaline filled full tilt fight. Why train as if you have the ability to know which hand, foot, knee, elbow, will be coming at you and from which position and how fast, or even what the weather conditions are going to be during a life and death attack. You can talk about the leverage moves and deep striking techniques all you want but can you make them happen at the most advantageous times and places with the worst psychopathic attackers? The answer is with most of the others the best you can do is have a chance to make your own chaos. With KCD you can control most of the opponent's attacks and then strike back with the most balanced, sensitive and powerful blows available today. The proof is in the pudding. Talking about one technique versus anther is just verbal masturbation. To obviate most arguments I have a standing invitation to all who are sincerely interested. You can visit us at my main class room at Premier Fitness or at the Hastings location. You can wear protective gear and can try out some techniques with us. This must be videotaped and you must sign a legal waiver against any physical or mental damages. We don't allow viewing of these videos by the public so you can get off all your best stuff and not get embarrassed if it flops. If your stuff works then it is of benefit to us all. This is not to be construed as a challenge to anyone. It is meant only for educational purposes. KCD must be felt to be understood. Videos and books can't approximate what your body goes through when a very controlled internal drop strike is applied to your body. As someone once said, "It's the most fun I can have just short of loosing consciousness". KCD is far more compact and efficient when it comes to delivering the most power to strikes or throws. It will enhance any other martial/combat art. Basically if someone tries to use leverage and deep penetrating strikes on a KCD adept most of their power is absorbed and returned instantly. Most folks who are not versed in soft internal absorption principles or cannot apply them instantaneously will be dropped easily with KCD. Again you have to experience it first hand. Take care, JP
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Ken
I'll add some more specific facts. Please excuse my tone if I seem somewhat harsh. On top of that, feel free to disagree with me if you feel I am in error.
1.There are too many wasted and superficial moves in SCARS. The leverages and arm strikes are complete silliness. If someone allows you to do one of those ridiculous moves in a fight they had to be incompetent or not serious about hurting you in the first place. If someone were to stab you, they'd never present the slow, or even 3/4 speed cadence that you see in SCARS, they'll go all out with the same type of offensiveness that SCARS tries to hold as unique to itself. Some of the attacks that you see presented in the SCARS video are unacceptable even if its geared towards beginners and I'm not talking only about the speed, I'm speaking about the general mechanics and distance. Speaking of which, something that isn't acknowledged in SCARS is that in a homicidal attack, people under adrenaline move at practically the same speed. The offensive mindset will only make you move faster than a sport fighter or someone that isn't serious. Freefighting is not real if you're not moving at the same speed, even if your attacker doesn't let you know what weapons he'll use.
2. SCARS is entirely too cooperative. What they have you doing by having an attacker give you autokinematic reactions while you pound him with a different set of strikes or leverages everytime is pointless because thats the easy part of fighting. You should spend more time refining your abilities to take an uncooperative attacker's balance and getting into position to do so. I assure you that SCARS does not come close to KCD in this regard. You may be able to strike and apply leverage to someones arm that is moving at 75 to even 80% of their full speed. However once you speed things up even a few more milliseconds those techniques can and most likely will break down. IMO, SCARS puts entirely too much emphasis on leveraging Aikido style movements. Before you jump on me, let me say that I am aware that the mechanics of the leverages used in SCARS are excellent, however this is pointless in a homicidal attack because you're simply bogging yourself down if you attempt those types of movements. Jerry Peterson almost admits it himself. On the Advanced hand to hand tapes vol.5 at the end where hes dealing with multi attackers, he basically demonstrates why you don't go on the ground and also tells you to never to use leverages unless they allow you to continue moving.
3.The sensitivity training in SCARS is based solely on Autokinematics. Autokinematics will simply fail against a well trained KCD practitioner because in KCD you're training your body to be loose while simultaneously attacking. It takes a structured body for SCARS strikes to even penetrate and create the reaction. That pretty much undermines the whole system in my opinion. When KCD is described as internal, its not meant to imply that they stand there and take punches squarely because the Chi makes them impervious to pain. Its considered internal because its focus is based upon your sense of touch in the same sense that a well trained BJJ fighter can grapple with someone while blindfolded as long as they have some bodily contact, as opposed to the external systems that rely more upon hand/eye coordination.
4.The only area, based on my observations where SCARS may have an edge on KCD is gun disarms. Jerry Peterson's rifle and gun disarms are simply excellent even though they seem to have ignored some very common positions. However, the simplicity and the control is superb and in my opinion, this alone was worth my training in SCARS. Also, SCARS is very pretty and flowing in comparison to KCD, which is not fancy or what you'd call "beautiful" by any stretch of the imagination.
In many ways SCARS is ahead of traditional martial arts and even most of the other "reality" fighting systems. If you have the time and patience you can do a lot of tweaking and get great results. From what I understand Tim Larkin is doing something similar with TFT but Autokinematic drills will never make you as efficient in combat as the uncooperative nature which KCD stresses from the very beginning.
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Kevin
Thanks for the replies John and Ken. I obviously dont know anything about Attackproof and am looking forward to exploring it. But there are several things that have been said which I would disagree with in terms of my training experiences at SCARS (please understand I am not trying to do this to advertise the system). By the end of Level 1 and certainly through most of level 2 we pretty much ignored striking the attacking limbs. At this point we were expected to deliver preemptive strike at the beginning of their movement or any other signs of threat(e.g. weapons brandishment)Certainly in fighting multiple attackers it was foolish to let the attackers make the first move (I always went on the offensive if at all possible)In weapon situations even at level 1 we were instructed to attack the attacker as you correctly said you dont want to wait and guess what the attacker is doing.
The autokinematics is simply physics. If you strike someone in the face the head goes back and the arms come up as part of the reflex response. If they bring their arms up to protect it is still the same effect, you open up the solar.
plexus, bladder etc. If they slip the punch by pulling their head back it is still the same thing. You always follow up strikes ready to use no matter where the attackers body has moved. Besides remember the system isnt designed for fighting KCD fighter's , MMA's etc. so I dont know how it would apply to someone absorbing strikes with no body movement (if I understand you correctly)
I agree with you on the leverages, I dont have much use for them other in certain firearms disarms. I would rather strike than throw. We actually did cover disarms of almost every type I could think of close, far, being held close and far, kneeling, lying down etc but that was at level 2 and in the counter car jacking course.
I would be interested especially in what the main principles,"rules of thumb" or key concepts etc that would define your system. It sounds like you have very interesting system here and appreciate your time and effort in educating me.
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Ken
I already know you're not advertising SCARS so no need to worry Kevin. Remember, I went to a Level 1 camp and I've trained directly with people who have attended a Level 2 camp. I really didn't know your level of understanding or view on leverages and attacking limbs, which is why I pointed out those flaws. Basically, what they did on those tapes was a waste of time because as soon as you start training in Close Combat or other WW2 philosophies, from day one as a beginner you're shooting straight in to attack the body. I mention that to simply support my point about wasted movement. It should not take a Level 2 camp to get to a philosophy so simple.
In regard to the Autokinematics, I think you're misunderstanding what is being said. Its not that it doesn't work, what is being said is that you won't be able to utilize it against a fighter who can absorb strikes and attack simultaneously. You're definitely moving your body, its just that you're not going to be moving away or in a circle as would occur during an autokinematic reaction. You will be constantly taking the attacker's space and jamming his limbs. Please note that this is not the same as an aggressive jam in the sense that we were taught in SCARS. The saving grace is what you said about SCARS not being designed to go against a KCD fighter. However, KCD was designed to go against someone from a SCARS or similar background. I think an instructor can handle the rest.
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF Kevin
Its been a long day, I went to post a reply and somehow started a new topic. I must have dyslexic finger! Anyway take care
11/21/03 at 00:20:56
Re: SCARS and ATTACKPROOF The management KCD
KCD is based on what happens at the exact millisecond of contact or pre-contact of an attack. I know that we are not actually dealing consciously in milliseconds but all resultant motion during as chaotic an event as a life and death struggle is what kills you or causes you to kill the attacking force. In KCD I am not dealing with he said, she said methodology which is the crux of most martial/combat methods. Your mind and body can register and react in extremely short time durations. To take out the gross reaction response to stimuli you must deal on a causal level. This does not mean just getting in the first strike. This means that you respond as empathically as possible. You must almost become your attacker. If you practice the drills of KCD and can develop your sensitivity and power concurrently you will be taken to a frame of mind or actual state of reality which doesn't rely on memorized reactions. You simply cannot pull from your hat a specific technique to a real time sudden series of movements which make up the elements of a real attack. Many people think that myself, Master Carron, Master Barnett, Master Ridenhour and some of the upper level instructors are reading the minds of the opponents. This is not so. We are reacting to the minute signals that are actually given by the opponent which allows some real time anticipation which allows us to place the proverbial monkey wrench into the constructs, albeit extremely short lived, that take place during close up martial conflict. Hence you can basically stuff most of the BS that passes for self defense no matter how pseudoscientifically it has been presented. Becoming one with your opponent has been what many deeper internal arts have striven for. I just took the old masters at their word and tried to work on that principle and have created a method to achieve this in reality and in a relatively short time period of training. Neurolotic training is where we begin. The mind follows and then eclipses the original concepts to make us seem like we are precogniscient. JP
12/04/03 at 05:27:41
Hello my name is Oliver, I study most of the WWII systems out there now after
being disappointed in JKD wich I did for a few years.What I wanted to ask was
what do you guys say about fitness in hand-to-hand?I mean a lot of guys out there
talk like you have to be in GREAT shape to defend yourself.But how about people
who are just not so athletic.Or, maybe guys who have a lot of strength but are
predisposed to overweight (like myself).Do you guys believe that to use KCD in
a real.allout fight you need to be in "excellent physical condition"?
Re: fitness John Perkins
I am not in good physical shape myself. I do, however, believe that being in the best physical condition that you can is important for longevity and enjoyment of life. I have some serious physical ailments which make it difficult to be slim. I can, however, make many of the most in shape individuals loose their wind in a short time. This is due to relaxing while sparring. I don't believe that sparring is a true measure of capability but some folks believe that it is and I will occasionally oblige them mostly to make one point or another. A real fight begins when there is some form of contact. Jumping around and looking for an opening like a kick boxer in a ring is not what a real determined attacker will usually do. If you must deal with someone who wants to attack in this manner just wait calmly and at the first sign of movement toward you drop step into him and attack. The drop step allows you not to overstep in case of feints and allows you to hit with maximum power. If your adversary jumps backward away from you just back up while keeping ready to drop step back at any time. Do not waste your time jumping around and wasting energy. The average fight lasts about from half a second to four seconds when one party knows and can apply basic close combat principles. Anything else is the pre-fight. People may circle you or move in and out at various times to try to "draw you out". Don't fall for it. Keep calm and rely on your ability to drop step and attack simultaneously. You don't have to be in good condition to do this. In fact if you know how to use drop step tech. it allows you to use your weight to your advantage. In KCD we do have many strength and stamina exercises which will enhance your maximum output for combat. These exercises will also greatly enhance your aerobic capacity. We are now experimenting with Kettle Bell exercises to see if it is all that it claims. I have personally fought with a Turk who was in extremely good condition from training with the weighted shield and sword training which is the most gruelling exercise I have ever seen. He was like iron. He tried to kill me. He lost. I was lucky. I was pliable. Strength and flexibility both physically and mentally are attributes that work well in life in general and not only in combat. The details of the Turk attack will be in one of the future books that I plan to write some time. I sometimes tell the story during some classes for the important information it shows. JP
12/10/03 at 06:00:02
Dropping strikes Kevin
I just recieved the Essentials of KCD and the seminar tape. They have lots of good info. I have a question on dropping strikes. I can see how they would work. The system I currently train emphasis' stepping deep into the target to bring body wt to the strike and to be prepared for the opponent to be driven back by the strikes. In drop strikes is it ok to step deep also or will that effect the dynamics of the drop strike. Also should one expect a drop strike to drive the opponent back substantially and should one be ready to close up the distance for the next strike. Thanks
Re: Dropping strikes Ken
Whats up Kevin? I believe you just asked almost the exact same question I did when I first started posting here. John Perkins will certainly be able to answer your question in better detail but I've noticed that if you strike someone with extreme speed,the force somehow seems to disperse throughout the body in a completely different manner. If you strike with slower force, at somewhat of a pushing speed the body will indeed go back as predicted by our previous training. Of course this is under ideal conditions, such as you getting proper angle of attack, him providing structure for your attacks and a host of other things. With penetrating speed, the entire situation changes and the target is potentially "crushed" instead of driven away. Often times, if the strike is unseen it will even cause the nervous system to shut down and you'll witness the body simply collapse by falling backwards or the knees will buckle and he'll fall straight down. If you continue pushing, he will probably go back and may lose his balance but this is no guarantee that he'll be unable to fight back. Of course the possibility also exists that you hit with speed but no real weighted force, in this case, the adrenaline raged attacker will probably not even feel it. I think your question is an excellent one, but if you simply flow with the attack, the question you've posted becomes a non issue.. In regards to the penetration, which was a major concern of mine when I first read Attack Proof, penetrating around 4 inches into the tissue with dropping energy is advocated. There was a description on how to practice this on this site somewhere but I can't find it. Later
Re: Dropping strikes Kevin
Thanks for the reply Ken. Do you have any pearls for practicing this solo since I currently have a lack of live bodies to train with. Are there any particular ways or tips for practing on the bag. Are there any ways you can tell if you are doing the strike in its best manner. Take care and good to hear from you again.
Re: Dropping strikes John Perkins
To practice the drop strike solo you need a bag that has the ability to absorb your hand or fist at least 4 inches but preferably 6 inches. You could take out the stuffing from a basic Everlast heavy bag and repack it with less padding making it softer. Or you could surround the outside of a regular heavy bag with foam padding and covering the padding with cloth. You next take a wobble board and place it at a distance away from the bag which allows you to strike with full extension of your striking arm penetrate up to 4 or 5 inches deep. The board should allow you to stand in a left or right hand lead position. While standing on the board you deliver your strike such as a palm heel strike to the head or upper chest without loosing your balance. This will automatically cause you to drop into the strike without falling forward thus keeping you in line with the strike and on balance at the same time. You could punch to the same targets or lower but remember to wrap your wrist so as not to bend it until you get proficient with punching in this manner. Next practice pushing the bag away from you without causing it to spin and on it's return you stop it's travel toward you and penetrate the bag deeply without leaning forward. You punch or strike once per 10 seconds or longer. You must practice for accuracy and balance. If you can keep your balance on the board while delivering more and more powerful strikes you are on the way to developing the basics of drop striking. The same can be done with kicks. Later when we practice with each other we work slowly at first allowing the partner to learn how to absorb strikes into the body while almost simultaneously striking each other. The speed is gradually increased until some time later under the guidance of advanced instructors you move at almost full speed without damamging each other. Most people don't know how to absorb full speed drop strikes and will suffer the consequences if hit. Later you apply drop force to all your repertoire of strikes to all sorts of targets. You will find soon that the protective padded suits that many like to use for sparring will not help against these internal drop strikes. The lack of sensitivity from wearing such equipment makes it very difficult to absorb the strikes without harm to the body. Forget about the joints or head altogether. Maybe the giant head used by the model mugging crowd will keep one safe but how many 2 foot wide heads do you get to strike in real life? Most important is that I have found that it is advantageous to strike in such a manner as to not allow the opponent to fall away but better to crush the striking area and dropping the opponent in his tracks if possible. Good luck, JP
12/12/03 at 18:11:13
pocketing on the ground
pocketing on the ground Steven Fagan
I think I have half a clue about fighting upright (hey, who's that laughing?), but not sure about pocketing/yeilding on the ground. I've seen Major Al's impressive break-dance/3-stooges impression from the 2001 tape which is good if you have enough distance/space and agility. But if not, then I guess you're forced into pocketing/yeilding. I tried to find my natural motion and it is mostly arching the target part of my spine away like a snake with my back flat on the floor whilst my hands/arms try to fend and borrow the energy - then flowing off that to get my legs in their face. I have 2 questions: is this how it looks for most folk (i guess everyone's application will differ); and is it a good thing to be arching the spine this way on a regular basis (gets pretty taxing when fueled by fear) - obviously applying the usual warnings to start slow, stay within your abilities, consult your doctor, etc. Thanks for a great system that gives me half a chance of defending myself.
Re: pocketing on the ground The Management KCD
The idea of pocketing on the ground is not the concept that best conveys what a KCD practitioner should do in a ground fighting scenario. First of all what you saw on the 2001 video was just a tiny fraction of what is needed to apply the ground fighting tech in KCD. One thing to realize is that what was demonstrated was a basic fall and roll and kick technique that is a prelude to training on the ground. That alone will buy you time if there is no escape and you are attacked in a multiple assault. If you are somehow brought to the ground during a fight there are so many variables to attacking and defending that books can be written on the subject and none of the information would require you to grapple in the method of Jiu Jitsu or wrestling. Just the way you fall while someone may be grabbing your ankles and driving foward is different from what the BJJ folks understand. I don't have these methods on video as of yet. They are taught in some smaller classes that I teach to Law Enforcement specialists and Military specialists along with my advanced students. Rudimentary ground fighting is taught in general. As far as pocketing goes it is not as neccessary as if fighting upright. You have the advantage of having more balance and all four limbs free to attack and defend with while on the ground. The idea of not resisting your attacker directly while on the ground is important so that you can easily find his vulnerable target areas.You would use the concepts found in contact flow when redirecting the hands of the attacker if he is striking or attempting to grapple. As you fall to the ground it is advisable to get your feet into action instantly. You would bring one or more of your knees up toward your face so as to thrust your leg out for some type of attack to your attacker's head or throat and any other secondary target that presents itself. In case your attacker finds himself attempting to grapple with your hands and arms you apply all eye gouge techniques with the most supple hand and arm sensitivity. Your power for any stronger strikes comes from shifting your body weight in various ways which allows some form of ground dropping which allows for more powerful strikes as well as escapes from grapples. Remember during a fight for your life you must be ruthless. I have had practice working with highly skilled BJJ practitioners and have worked with them with some of the Valle Tudo concepts. It was fast and furious but while they were attacking toward my eyes and throat they were using high speed and strength with a tension to their attacking limbs which allowe all the KCD soft redirecting to work. Caution! I and the KCD masters and advanced teachers are able to apply KCD during ferocious practice even against persons who don't know KCD without causing serious harm to the combatant/trainees. If you work with someone who is advanced in grappling you must practice slowly the cepts of KCD. If your training partner insists on going all out to beat you it is advisable to explain that high speed eye gouges or toe pushes to the throat or heel kicks to the spine or neck etc. are dangerous to practice with speed or determination and could cause permanent injury and death. I know all the BS arguments that come up such as moving the head so as not to loose an eye and many others. I know the macho big muscle theories about ground fighting. It is difficult to accept that being muscle bound or having tremendous anaconda like ability can be defeated by some simple attacks. People think that something like a dedicated finger thrust into the eye which is plunged deep into the brain will not work. In KCD we practice how to apply these methods of what we call Mayhem Do seriously and have many training methods which are not known by other martial arts to accomplish these things. A person who is limited to strangling, grappling and striking while using muscular resistance will be at a distinct disadvantage to someone who has practice being looser and totally spontaneous to these attacks. We also practice high speed strangles form all sorts of angles along with the many other attacking methodologies from KCD. Simple resistance and sudden release practice against a strength oriented practice partner is a good way to begin some ground fighting. The ability to rotate your wrist out of grips and suddenly flowing into the throat and eyes is one basic practice method. If you know internal drop tech you can apply it to the thrusting strikes to vulnerable areas of your attacker. Remember dropping while on your back is possible. The slight arching and release of your torso will give you some sudden strike ability. Loading the spring as is described in the book can be practiced from the ground. Tearing your attacker from your body with your feet is good practice. While training various Marine Corp instructors in the pit, Major Ridenhour was able to have three BJJ trained instructors attack at the same time. The use of combat boots against these men was, to say the least, devastating. The instructors quickly found that submission holds and mounting the enemy is a bad joke. The Russian manual on fighting deals with most Jiu Jitsu attacks and holds pretty directly. Most of the pictures of our soldiers mounting or grappling with the Russian specialists depict the partners of the Russians just slamming the edge of a shovel through the head of our troops. We have some students who have practiced fighting in Bosnia as well as Russia and all have found that the application of ferocious tearing and striking methods are practiced for ground fighting in these areas. I am sorry that we are not allowed to tear out an opponents eyes or crush the trachea during practice because short of that some of the more bone headed grapplers just say that the touch to the eyes or thumb applied lightly to the throat don't count. The fact that these methods actually work on the battlefield is ignored because it doesn't fit their plan. The so called street fighting BJJ methods are better than the sportive methods but are not as efficient as KCD. In the near future we will video tape the more basic practice methods for ground fighting. We will not include much of the extreme stuff which we have been teaching to some select professional soldiers and police but for the martial arts public these methods will be eye opening. Pocketing is good practice for elusivness and allows for some set ups that will not be expected by your opponent. Sorry to be so long winded. The Management
12/15/03 at 05:26:52
I felt many would benefit from the answer being posted here -- thank you.
Re: A question about rooting John Perkins
Your question is a bit interesting. When practicing fundamental rooting strikes I have found it advantageous to teach the same side root/strike in the beginning simply because it is easier to understand and apply at first. Rooting from or to the opposite leg from your striking hand is a bit more difficult to learn. It is, however, just as important as the same side delivery. Sometimes you will not be able to root on one side or another because of the dynamics of a fight. you may find that while initiating a drop strike from one side you suddenly need to shift your balance to avoid a kick or evade a sweep. Here you instantly reroot onto the opposite leg while still applying the strike with the initial hand or elbow etc. Whenever you kick and simultaneouly root you always use the opposite leg to root. I hope this answers your question. JP
12/17/03 at 03:04:27
grabs in ki chuan do luciano debellis
Are grabs a realistic practical tool in this art? by this i dont mean a momentary grab to get the opponent to tense up or to release and strike but a firm strong hold to immoblize the opponents arm which i seem to get quite often ... the 2 schools of thought that i have gotten so far on this are 1) dont let them do that and 2) grabs are not practical or feasible at speed in a realistic situation...so basically im asking in practice when moving slowly and my training partner grabs me firmly with a very tight grip how do i work around this ,if in fact , it is not a practical movement ? they can pull it off and use it at a slow speed but can it be done at a realistic pace? i have been debating this question for a while and would greatly appreciate a definitvie answer to it ,thank you for your time
Re: grabs in ki chuan do The Management KCD
Thank you for your question. The answer is this. If you are in a static situation like standing in line waiting for your groceries to get checked out someone could suddenly grab you if you are unaware. Here is where dropping into the fright (fight) reaction comes into play. By suddenly dropping and simultaneously raising your shoulders and elbows most sudden Chin Na or Jiu Jitsu style grab attacks will be nullified or put off course. You next rely on your sensitivity and looseness to return a slamming strike combination into your attacker almost seamlessly without apparent hesitation. As for the grabbing that goes on during contact flow training I have this to say. If the practice is being done by a very high level instructor or master, the main purpose is to allow you to feel the intitation of a grabbing or grappling motion to a limb or other body area. If your training partner is simply grabbing at high speed while you are supposed to be moving at a slower pace then your partner is full of ego and just trying to win at slow practice. This is something that happens at the beginning stages of KCD practice. The best thing to do is suddenly rip out his gonads or throat immediately and call 911 JUST KIDDING!!!!!!! Obviously you will make it clear to your partner that sudden speeding up is not helping either of you to absorb the KCD principles properly. If the partner keeps up the wrong action you simply excuse yourself and take a water break. Without malice ask the instructor to work out the escape from the particular grab along with your partner. Do not challenge your partner directly by saying something like "hey your speeding up" because he or she will most likely become psychologically defensive and all you will end up doing is speeding up in turn to protect yourself and your ego. In KCD there is no room for extended time playing ego games. Every minute you or someone speeds up to gain unfair advantage during slow practice is wasted effort and only reenforces incorrect reactions. Remember if a person could attack you three times faster than a normal person then that person would not even need to learn self defense. A person who is 3 or more times faster than human beings could be untouchable in a fight. Just imagine how fast a person could run. In KCD we do use certain types of grabs. Some, as you have mentioned, are for postitional advantage while others are for crushing tissue like the throat or other soft body parts for control. This type of control method is for dealing with somewhat compliant prisoners in police work. Of course a strong pinching action can sometimes help in a fight but don't count on it. Grabbing and grappling are only supposed to be practiced so as to teach the KCD practitioner what it feels like to be attacked in this manner. This allows you to learn to flow around the movement and simultaneously strike back. If you are a bouncer and dealing with a non combative drunk then some of the Jiu Jitsu grabs and twists may come in handy. For serious adrenaline blood baths grappling or trying control by grabbing and twisting will usually get you hurt or worse. This is where the Guided Chaos methodology comes in. Flow, strike, and bounce your opponent at every turn. Generally if you know what you are doing and are defensively ruthless a fight will last about a half a second to four seconds in your favor. Good luck, JP
12/22/03 at 04:48:41
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art?
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? GP
It seems that the hottest ticket in the martial arts world is Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Recently a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu school opened its doors in my home town claiming to be the ultimate in close quarter, hand-to-hand combat. During my conversation with the instructor, he informed me that in 2002, the US Army Rangers Special Forces Unit declared Brazilian Jiu-jitsu the choice for hand-to-hand combat trainig. He stated that this mandate was put into place due to the effectiveness of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu in life and death situations. Does anyone in the KCD community have experience with Brazilian Jiu-jitsu? How effective is a grappling art with regards to hand-to-hand combat? Is Brazilian Jiu-jitsu a bonafide self-defense art?
01/27/04 at 02:32:54 IP: 220.127.116.11
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? John Perkins
We at Attack Proof Inc. made a video tape titled KILL THE ENEMY. This tape deals with the terrible hoax that has been played upon the military establishment in the U.S. by proponents of BJJ. I am not blaming the Gracies because I don't believe that they know any better. I think that people who are not real close combat warriors can easily get confused by hype. Many police officers in some cases believe that you can fight like Chuck Norris in the street until they get dropped by a dose of reality in the form of an ex prison monster who has learned the short cut to taking out his enemy. It is the same with many of the military folks. Because our military is well equipped with ammuntion for our very handy rifles and with all of our airborne fire power the average soldier never gets a chance to fight hand to hand (thank God).
Hypno Jitsu has even reached the military because very few veterans of serious close combat engagements without weapons exist. Major Al has proven many times in Camp LeJeune to the BJJ instructors how dangerous the BJJ is in close quarters battle. He has taken from one to three instructors and students at a time and slammed them in the "pit". Yes it is wise to learn what an enemy can do to you with grappling moves. It is wiser still to learn how to kill the enemy instantly without going to the ground if possible. Remember most soldiers in the field have some sort of an edged weapon on them if nothing else. You can be sliced and diced in a split second if you choose to tackle and try to just choke out or worse yet try to mount or get an enemy combatant into a submission hold who has no compunction to cut you up and kill you. Our troops would be far better off and some have found this to be true to work primarily with serious striking techniques which kill as quickly as possible and work with some grappling secondarily. Yes I know in the ring, as was stated by one of the Special Forces officers, that one of the Gracies actually broke a man's arm. By that measurement then some of my personal police officer friends must be really superior who have broken far more than a man's arm in the street while being savagely attacked by multiple armed assailants. If anyone wants to see what happens to a man who goes to the ground with another while there are other enemy combatants in the vicnity just rent MENACE 2 SOCIETY and see what happens to the folks who go to the ground in the "Hood". Yes there are some methods in WW2 combatives where you sneak up behind an enemy sentry and choke him from behind but you must realise that most of the sentry take outs were done using a blade or silenced gun. Remember, the enemy is not locked in by any rules of the octagon he is allowed to push his fingers deep into you brain through the eyes. He is allowed to bite your throat. The enemy is allowed to cut your body to pieces. His buddies are allowed to, as pictured in the Russian close combat manual, split your skull with a shovel if you are grappling with one of their buddies.
Submission type holds or mounting the enemy is foolish. There are many serious techniques that will dispatch an enemy combatant hand to hand which are far superior to BJJ. Yes I know about Valle Tudo and all the macho grappling stuff. Remember, the originator of WW2 style combatives was W.E. Fairbairn. He was the first caucasian to obtain the rank of Master in Aiki Jiu Jitsu from Japan in the early thirties. He was responsible for training peace keepers in Shanghai China later in the thirties. Here he had to deal with men who were members from many warring factions as well as brigands from all over the globe and quite a few jiu jitsu and karate and kung fu fighters who had real killing experience. He was involved in over 600 engagements and personally killed 115 enemy both armed and unarmed. He was called upon along with others like him to develop the close combat methods used in WW2 and subsequently in many other wars throughout the world. These methods have worked for real in many thousands of documented kills. Incidentally Aiki Jiu Jitsu is Jiu Jitsu used for killing in war. It is not the sport type Jiu Jitsu you see today. Fairbairn and the rest of the men who developed close quarters combat were mostly grapplers who found that strikes were far more workable in the battlefield than grapples. They found that using Atemi (softening strikes) were needed before a grapple or throw could be utilized effectively. They found that it was much more efficient to hit a man and then just hit him again to dispatch him. If you can crush a man's throat with a strike why get into trying to strangle him in the field where there are so many options for the enemy to do ghastly mayhem to you also.
I personally work with and have worked with BJJ military instructors and have worked and still work with some UFC BJJ trained fighters. So you know why they train with me? Because they have seen the light. As I have stated many times before I invite any serious instructor to visit me to work this out in person. All confidentiality will be taken into consideration if desired. We can write up an agreement with our lawyers, if you wish, not to tell or display the results of our meeting if you desire. All demonstrations will be video taped and personal injury releases will be signed for all of these engagements for my personal legal protection. This is not a challenge but an invitation to any serious and concerned teacher from the military or the world at large to work any questions you may have. I feel that if you are in charge of teaching men/women to survive a real life brutal life and death hand to hand encounter you owe it to them to know the facts and teach the facts. I personally worked with 3 SEALS who were trained in BJJ and they lost in a matter of seconds. They tried attacking me from various positions and lost badly each time. Yes I know that it is unfair to pit a master against them but do you think that a grappler would win against 3 SEALS in the field? These men became true believers in real CQB. Yes again I will say, given certain limited circumstances, BJJ will work against one man at a time provided that the man is not versed in killing with edged weapons and has none with him at the time and has no friends in the area to kick a grappling attacker's head in. It is wise to learn what a grappling attack feels like and it is wiser to learn how to Kill Your Enemy! I know that this seems to be a rambling post. I only wish I could express the near contempt I have for anyone who knowingly teaches bulljitsu to our troops. I have no respect and just plain anger for this situation in our military. Due to politics or just plain ignorance this has been perpetrated on our fine, brave fighting men and women. I know that some of the brass figure that close combat is of little use because statistically it will happen very little and BJJ has some great PR going for it. It has also been explained to me that any martial hand to hand training is use mostly as a morale booster. This is a shame. I know that this post along with my big mouth will probably cost me any future military contracts. It has not, however, kept many individual serious warriors from finding me or some of the masters of mayhem out there. Check out Brad Steiner's Combato or look up Gutterfighting.net for more information. Communicate with these men. Don't just look over the web sites speak to them in person. Get Real. A murder attempt on the street or in your home is just as dangerous as a battlefield attack. That's it for now. Take care out there. JP
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? Rob Green
Mr. Perkins pretty much nailed that question to the ground and stole its luch money. Since I am not a member of KCD, though I have seen some from tapes and my friends; let me just add abit from the outside. All Mr. Perkins said is true. BJJ does have a great amount of information and usefull things for any UFC type competitor. Such competitions are NOT real H2H combat though. Not the battlefield nor the street. Grappling skill, though usefull at times; is not the 'big gun' that you would want to rely on in 'the real'.
For all of the reasons sited above.
I guess my specialty is the 'prison monster' metioned. These are the creatures that most people might encounter in the street. When hunting, they tend to move in teams or groups -- tend to be quite viscious, armed and often are on drugs. While in prison, they exchange information and practice their craft. Even when you might be confronted by a single un-armed mugger that you can take down and begin to choke out -- too late will you find out that he has a partner (who has been wathching for the cops) and this is the guy with the weapon (in case the actual mugger gets arrested suddenly, he will be unarmed -- so much a lesser charge in a court of law).
One thing that Mr. Perkins did not go into, and I can without concern for military contracts; is the procedure by which an 'official' choice is made; in this case, BJJ for the military. Over the years, there have been numerious martial methods touted as 'approved, authorized, chosen' by different branches of the military (or LEO Academys) for training to the members of that group. Sometimes, when you peel away the paperwork; you will find that (coincidentally?) somebody relatively high up in the decision making process 'just so happens' to be a student of what becomes the chosen art. After all, he is in the loop and can promote his particular agenda to the brass where another, more effective art has no such voice in the process.
Thats pretty bad. No real investigation done by guys who have had to h2h it within a combat zone, only the particular view of an opinion of the few that sails through the approval process without any real testing. Dont get me wrong...BJJ is a valid martial art but it is sport oriented - not survival in combat oriented. I would go so far as to say you could put one of the best of the BJJ camp into the equipment worn by the average Ranger (not even considering the specialized equipment)and pit him against a fairly experienced fighter (not even a combat h2h guy) and the results will be less than spectacular. Worse yet, is when the descision making process runs through a chain of command where there is NO martial art or h2h experience amongst the members. Then you are faced with the 'researchers' who might make a choice based on hype alone -- hearsay and guesswork -- after all, it is the ULTIMATE Fighting Championship, isnt it? The ads all say so.
Think I am exaggerating this? I assure you, there seems to be much more research into what is included in any military units PX store than what goes into deciding what to train the military in for effective h2h skills to save a soldiers life in times of need. It seems insane, but I stand by that last statement. One of the stupidest things ever done by the military decision makers was to discard the old CQC of WW2 and search for something better without success. Sorta like discarding the K-Bar knife and replacing it with a butter knife. It goes past stupid -- it is completely irresponsabile and very, very sad.
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? Rob Green
When you know how to put body alignment behind the cut, even the crappiest knife can go to the bone in a cut. ALWAYS pissed me off that inmates in the system have access to plastic knives in messhalls - I have demonstrated to newer officers how efficiently these seemingly harmless blades can cut a person very deeply. Then again, inmates tend not to know how to do this...they prefer to make their own. Some of the oldtimers know how to take the foil lining from the Newports that they used to be able to buy - no smoking permitted in the facilities anylonger - and by wrapping it tightly around a cigarette filter and applying heat carefully from a match - now verbotten - they could fashion a pretty decent 'poker'.
Grappling does have a place in a well rounded m.art arsenal but it is not the first line of defense and those that rely on it in a true open conflict learn this, often too late.
I mentioned in another place about an inmate altercation where a superior sized grappler managed to bearhug another and pin the guys arms. The one held - BIT THE HOLDERS LOWER LIP CLEAN OFF HIS FACE! Savage? Very...but quite effective and a good example of a sportive technique meeting up with a real no-holds-barred response. The 'beasties' are out there, folks. It has been a failing in methods that claim to teach self-defense to not even address thier existence, their tactics and to learn how to respond to them.
In a real conflict, I would rather face an opponent with a black belt from an average commercial dojo than one with a years time of violence taught in Elmira, Ossining or a 'busy house' on Rikers puni/seg unit.
There is an element of truth in the old joke: "Back off, I know K-rate"!
Oh yeah, well I know C-razy"!
And these are just the underbelly of our own society. I daresay that the religious/cultural fanatic that could be met on todays battlefield has a hell of a lot more personal committment to destroying his enemy than a mugger does -- all else held equal.
I sometimes wonder if LE organizations and the military brass will ever smarten up -- until they do, it falls on the individual. Since these individuals who serve deserve the best for themselves and the society they protect - it is outrageous that they dont get it. The private individual also deserves this chance. (Now I am beginning to sound like Mr. Perkins here. He says it more eloquently than I, so I will shut up...for now).
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? Greg
Looking forward to watching the Spymasters program on the Discovery Channel and I can't help but think that things will accelerate significantly for this system when it is aired. There are plenty of people in uniform who are looking for the absolute real deal in hand-to-hand combat, especially the elite ops and security types. Supposedly some of these units have a budget to request guest instructors. The purpose of the military and law enforcement is to defend the status quo - so you innately have some people that are resistant to change (a University, on the other hand, exists to generate new ideas and attracts its own set of personalities). And a "big mouth" may upset some of the higher-ups or those w/ vested interest but there are many who would invest a lot of their own training time into something that they thought was valuable - I'd bet that a good instructor who set up shop in a military town might start out slow but eventually do very, very well.
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? John Perkins
If you are brought to the ground for one of many reasons and someone tries to tie you up or mount you on the battlefield and haven't practiced how to poke your fingers deeply into an opponent's eye sockets or learned to crush a windpipe or rip into the groin or bite into exposed flesh while you are wearing your battle gear in various levels, then you are not practicing to live. This is only one basic use of down and dirty real technique that a person could learn. You can fight in just a shirt and pants with your boots or learn to use an empty rifle against an ememy combatant before getting to a bare handed situation. Just going to the ground and using some of the groundfighting methods of KCD will keep you from most grappling while doing maximum damage to someone who is trying to control, mount or choke you out. A person who has a weapon and goes to the ground and tries the grappling moves with the knife that I have seen on some videos and which have been demonstrated on me personally will not have an advantage against a person who goes to the ground and can knife fight from the ground position. There are a multitude of maneuvers which can be applied using an edged weapon from the ground position which will negate most grappling. If you practice using magic markers on each other starting from the ground you will find that you will get marked up a whole lot faster by the guy who is intent on cutting like a fan blade gone loose than one who is attempting to control you with some form of grappling while using a knife. Of course if a person is performing a sentry take out from behind and pulling back on the head of a victim while simultaneously stabbing him and they fall to the ground then the attacker who has performed a kind of grapple and stab will have an advantage. In all of these matters you need to use some common sense and not stick to something which is not to your advantage because of some attachment to some form of fighting art or other. Remember you must practice without cooperation as much as possible. Imagine what you would do to someone who tried to take you to the ground and the life of a loved one also hung in the balance. If you ever tried to grapple a psychotic maniac bent on killing you who is moving a warp speed like a grounded trout you will find that it is pretty much like trying to control an enemy combatant bent on surviving whatever you throw at him. Yes if you are an accomplished and/or professional ground fighter and you also learn how to perform the most penetrating throat crushes and eye gouges as well as strikes designed to kill you will truly be formidable but you will find out quickly that the sportive methodology will not be used as much as the killing techniques. There are a number of ground killing techniques that KCD uses which are derived from native american and other sources that hardly rely on grappling in the wrestling sense. These methods use striking and kicking combinations which are devastating and are clearly not allowed in UFC or other sportive methods simply because they are lethal. The choke hold is lethal but it can be applied somewhat safely in the ring. You cannot kick a man in the throat safely for instance. Imagine a UFC fighter who knew how to heel kick a person in the temple or back of the head or simply in the eye socket. Do you think he would wait to grapple an enemy combatant when he could simply put his light out far more efficiently? There are a number of ways to practice many lethal moves with restraint. There are some methods of practicing using some specialized gear to, for instance, train in gouging the eyes deeply while your opponent is trying an unlimited variety of grapples and take downs. I do not wish to list these methods or equipment here. It would be far safer to just visit and train a short time in person to experience how much of this works. In the meantime, as I said before, just think what your attitude and how unleashed your fighting would be against someone who wants to ruthlessly take your life or that of a loved one. Imagine you are on an airline with very little room to move. Imagine you are stuck bent over or between the seats of an airliner where you have no room to move, where you can't even twist around to get a superior position. This is where real fighting begins. You could be between two parked cars and fighting on ice after you have been punched and while you are wearing heavy clothing. You may have fallen with your opponent but you are only able to grab his legs. There is a universe of responses to most high speed chaotic mind numbing attacks. Can you figure out what to do at the right time in the right time to be effective? Be true to yourself and question and then question again. Work with someone who has been in the real stuff where blood flowed freely and hard men were at the work of killing. I am not trying to sound scary I am just presenting some ideas to make you think out there. I have been fortunate to have been taught by men who did think freely and practiced and actually did the real thing. I could write a book just on the real life and death struggles I have witnessed, experienced, worked on as a crime scene expert, and personally survived. None of it ever resembled a UFC or NHB sportive event. Not even close. Again I am ranting. I hope not for nothing. Good luck out there folks and keep alert. JP
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? Major Al
I figure now that my name was used I guess I'll jump into the fray. First of all this is a great discussion and one worthy of an article for some of the more prominent martial arts magazines down the line. I'm not going to rehash what's already been said, I think everything that has been said is all good and beneficial for everyone's knowledge. I also agree with "the Wastrel"s last comments that,
"Deliberate ground fighting is one optional strategy for NHB fighters, but I would not recommend it as a viable tactic in an entirely uncontrolled environment which may involve weapons, multiple attackers etc. In those situations, being brought to the ground is a disaster, but once it occurs, few people are as well-prepared to regain their feet as an experienced ground fighter. Especially one that is armed."
It is true that most people when they go to the ground are not well prepared to regain their feet, however the reason for this is because, at least in my experience, they're getting pulverized by their attacker(s), and not due to a lack of grappling skill. Just my opinion.
When I was recalled to active duty and I was down in Camp Lejeune I was able to get a first hand view of the new "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program." Some of you have heard me speak on this publicly so you know what I think of the program, and one of the biggest criticism that I have is that there is too much grappling involved as you progress through the various levels of the system. And the only thing that our young warriors have to look forward to from such sportive, non-warrior training is a "body bag!"
I had the opportunity to work with many instructors and I can tell you, if not for the fact that I have enough control not to seriously injure them some of their families might have ended up collecting on their $250,000 SGLI death gratuity benefit (much to the chagrin of some of their wives, just kidding). In one instance I had one guy "test" me by diving in hard and fast to take my legs out. This was based on the familiar challenge of, "well what if I come in really hard and fast?" I don't know why, maybe he just wasn't as skilled as he should have been which is highly possible, but to make a long story short he almost needed up with a cracked sternum. Which proves several things, 1) if you attack me directly and of course let me know you are going to do it ahead of time, and come in hard and fast, I'm going to kick you "hard," "deep" and "fast," 2) in spite of my best efforts and his near loss of consciousness, "Flack Jackets" really do work, which explains why he didn't die, 3) because we have more insurance in the military I can get away with kicking people in the chest as hard as I can "with a combat boot on."
The problem I've often found with the whole grappling argument is that people still do not understand that grappling works "if they're not trying to kill you." Several Ju Jitsu Masters that we have worked with have admitted as much which is why they use "Atemi" strikes to take people out or as in the case of the people they teach in law enforcement, to soften people up so that they can control them.
I use to wrestle in high school and I placed in several major tournaments and once even beat one of the top wrestlers in the state of New York in a match. More over I've been in numerous fights growing up and trust me, every "Brother in the hood" that went to the ground could expect to get stomped. And it never failed that someone's cousin would come out of the wood work to jump in. With that said I think I have enough knowledge even without KCD to know that grappling in real fight to the death could be suicide.
While there is some truth to the argument that most fights end up on the ground I question the high figures as touted by many martial arts schools which emphasize grappling skills, however, let's assume that 90% to 95% of fights as the Gracie's have been quoted as saying do end up on the ground. What proponents of this argument don't tell you, or can't tell you because maybe they just don't know is what happens in the 5% to 10% of fights that don't end up on the ground. Do you know why? It's because someone gets killed! So the question is, how do you know if you're dealing with the 90% to 95% of grapplers or the 5% to 10% percent of killers? The answer is, you just don't, and that's the point!
In a real fight to the death and especially for military personnel you have to assume that people are trying to kill you. It's insane to believe otherwise. If people want to study grappling arts I say more power to them, heck I was at a high school wrestling match not long ago catching up with my old coach Brian Tompkins, and I still think it's a great sport. I also think that all of the grappling arts are great arts and you definitely can't beat them for the cardiovascular workout. But understand, if you go to the ground and the person you're fighting means to kill you, it may be an exhibition you only get to perform one time. Choose wisely!
Re: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Close Quarter Combat Art? weechey
Well, here are my two cents. I've been fortunate to train a coupla times with Mr. Perkins and Major Al, (sorry I haven't been by more...things are crazy at work!) and these are the things that really impressed me about them and their students, aside from a high level of skill. First, there is a real sense of open mindedness among the KCD folks. They have been extremely respectful to my own art, Tae Kwon Do, when I first participated in their classes, and I have seen no disrespect towards other arts in their words or actions. Second, these are highly experienced and scientifically oriented fighters. Being open minded also means being critical and analytical, and the posts that have been put forth by them reflect a tremendous amount of real-life and experimental evidence/experience. Third, I have yet to meet a KCD person who is not a model of humility. As is often stated on the posts I've read, you have to experience it to understand it. I do not come from a KCD background, and yet Mr. Perkins and his students easily made me feel at home in his classes. Lastly, and I am basing this on the posts I've read so far, they have a really funny sense of humor. You can tell by the way they describe combat situations. Major Al's latest post is a real chuckler for me. (Flack jackets work - hehehehe). Wastrel, I understand your need to make a point about BJJ, but it seems to me that it's just one point, and it's not clear to me that the others have really disagreed with you. Lighten up...you might miss the forest for the trees :-)
Advice Joel Jordan
I was just wandering what would be your advice in a situation where you see an innocent person being viciously bashed by a gang. On one hand you want to help the victom, but on the other hand they could turn on you and then you become the victom. I find most people turn a blind eye.
Re: Advice Rob Green
Find a phone...call the police. Although this might piss off the LEO herein - tell the operator its a cop getting beaten up (an inner city method to get overwhelming quick response).
Anything else depends on who you are, any skills you may possess and weapons at your disposal. How big is the group? Are they using weapons? Is it a neighborhood gang (wearing colors) or a seemingly mixed group of 'friends? (The difference being that a neighborhood gang will have many supporters in the area that, although they are not part of the beating; might be more than glad to help bash you over the head to show their 'respect' for the gang.
The scenario described has far too many unmentioned variables to answer with any form of exactness. The best thing is to call the 'professionals.
Re: Advice Bronxcop
I'm LEO in the inner city, most notably the Bronx, and my advice to you is call 911. That is one and only thing you should do. Unless the person getting pummelled is a loved one, calling 911 is the only option. Jumping in will not help him out, and will only help you win a free trip to the emegency room. Just get as good of a description as you can to the operator. IN some cases, the person getting jumped on will not press charges against those who jumped him. Mostly because they want to solve it on the street, as drug dealers do sometimes. So, if you do get involved, it will be for naught. Don't be a hero in this situation. AS for saying a police officer getting beat up, my advice is not to say to the operator that an officer is getting beat up. As Rob Green pointed out, there is an overwhelming response, cops run themselves ragged, and sometimes get into accidents trying to get to an officer in need. It is not worth to jump in, nor is it worth it to say a cop is getting beat up. As cold as it may sound, you don't know the person, nor the reason he is getting beat up. Calling 911 is the best answer.
John Perkins background
If you wish to know my background it is quite simple. I worked in the Forensic Lab in Yonkers New York from 1976 to 1991. My Primary function was crime scene search along with various forensic crime laboratory functions such as drug analysis serial number restoration, fingerprint enhancement by various means. I am a Firearms expert with years of training and experience at crime scenes in Yonkers and worked some cases in New York City as an assistant to my mentors including some photography work on the Jennifer Levin homicide and assisted Dr. DeForrest at the famous KiKo case in Washington Heights. I have worked on many homicide scenes alone and with Dr. Peter Pizzola currently Deputy Director of the New York City Medical Examiner's office. I have worked on crime scenes and consulted with Dr. Peter DeForrest who is the head of Forensic Science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. I have personally trained hundreds of police officers in crime scene search. I personally worked and instructed ten interns at our laboratory from John Jay College and have worked on thousands of blood spatter experiments for Dr. DeForrest and Dr. Pizzola which was published in the Journal of Forensic Science in 1983 and has become a mainstay in the area of Blood Spatter dynamics. While directly involved in developing the Yonkers P.D. forensic lab I was a student of Forensic Science at John Jay College. I am also certified as a crime scene photographer and was trained by the FBI at Camp Smith in New York. I have testified often in Yonkers City Court and State Supreme Court in Westchester County. I presently work as the Forensic Science consultant and firearms and self defense trainer for the Brosnan Group which is a highly respected investigatory and protection agency in New York City which employs former FBI, Secret Service and NYPD detectives. I retired as a Detective from the Yonkers P.D. in 1991.
Most of my military data I received from my uncles who were in WW2 and information from Charles Nelson and Col. Rex Applegate. In reference to choke holds used in LAPD as the only verifiable kills by bare hands I think that you have not availed yourself of the military files of Col. Rex Applegate. Quite a few folks have met their makers from men who used the close combat methods used by our military and also used in other countries. Most of what I teach is designed for police officers and the military. The use of much of KCD is also good for citizens. Getting someone into the mounted position is quite difficult for most women or older and weaker men. Why try to mount someone when you can use a weapon if you are old or weak. We all are going to age sometime. I remember when the Gracies challenged Judo Gene LaBelle to a match. Gene's answer was I will fight your father who is my age. Get it? Many civilians are attacked daily by armed assailants. That is why I have so much emphasis on weapons training. Remember the add for Boker knives? The add showed the picture of one of their knives in the center of the page. The caption went, "Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Kung Fu right in your back pocket". When you are older and weaker a good blade goes a long way in your self defense let alone a handgun. I was completely taken by surprise also when I saw the picture of an army ranger who was mounted on a russian soldier getting his head split with a shovel. This is the 1989 edition of the russian special forces manual. It would seem that they were psychic. It does make one see some weakness in the mounted position on the battlefield though. Getting to your sidearm is quite important and does require some hand to hand knowledge. Knowing how to shoot against multiple assailants is also an important part of self protection. I don't just teach barehanded self defense. Much of my teaching includes weapons training because quite a few folks do depend on firearms to protect themselves we all can't be Tarzan and ground fight attackers into submission. Again, the training for police officers such as fighting against armed assailants on a stairway, for instance, is just as important for civilians. You don't get to choose where or when or what the weather will be when a criminal attacks you. Since when do soldiers today have unarmed fights today? Do you remember Somalia, Beruit, and some other places where the enemy has been fighting us. Some soldiers swear by the old methods of H2H that they were forced to use. Native american in origin? I can only say that my father, uncles and grandfather claimed Cherokee blood. The formidable fighting methods that they taught me were, according to them, from Cherokee and West Virginia hill traditions. They at least were of american indian background. If they lied to me about the origin of their fighting abilities what can I say. They were my elders and could kick some serious butt. Even Master Ik Jo Kang recognized my father's abilities when he worked with him in the dojo. The methodology used in the fight scenes in The Last of the Mohicans was supposed to originate from some of the Native americans that I met and trained with. They stated that what my father showed me was as real as it gets. Maybe they were lying also. You skipped a question about where the Gracie competitor used an eye poke illegally to get him out of a tight spot against a big Dutch Jiu Jitsu man. This is on video. Gracie was not penalized for this. It worked well. I hope this helps you in some fashion. JP
02/03/04 at 01:45:38
The practice of not going to the ground if you can help it is important to the armed LEO as well as the armed military member. One of the first things drilled into an LEO is don't let them get you down because if they get your weapon you and others may be killed. This takes the normal fighting situation and magnifies it to a level of extreme danger. This is why when attacked the LEO must consider it a life and death struggle at all times. You never really know the intentions of an attacker. You can't rely on his good will and assume that he is just going to rough you up a bit and not try to take your gun if you are unconscious or just plain stab you once he has the chance. This is why LEOs state that they don't want to go to the ground. If you are properly armed and an attacker(s) attempts to take you down and even attempts to choke you or go for your gun you must take out your backup weapon and apply it instantly. The idea of wrestling around with someone while you are alone or without fellow officers to back you is insane. This does not, however, preclude the practice of learning grappling from many sources. In KCD we practice escapes from as many types of attacks as can be brought to our classes from many sources. This includes practice with shoot fighting, BJJ, UFC, Greco-Roman and College wrestling, just about every conceivable armed and unarmed form of martial art. This is why we welcome the trading of techniques and methodology from as many instructors as possible. We have, over the years, developed a link with many masters of martial arts. Dealing with the armed or unarmed psycho who is attacking with no thought about his own safety is the number one priority in KCD because in most cases a person who would attack an armed uniformed officer has to have a deadly agenda or a serious screw loose. The sheer chaos of a fight in the normal kitchen of a whacked out man during a simple family dispute can turn into a serious injury or death for an improperly trained LEO. Even at best anything can and usually will go wrong at the scene of a criminal attack. Do you allow someone to take you out because you are not prepared to go the limit? A choke from behind can be released from various postitions given the right circumstances. One of the best ways to accomplish this, however, is to take out your knife, assuming that you are unable to get to your primary weapon, and cut whatever is holding onto you. You could also practice getting real fast at bringing your backup handgun into play. Yes we teach how to get out of attacks using only bare handed methods. We practice how not to get there in the first place by as many bare handed means as possible. We utilize the most effective methods as we can find. We do not teach to play by rules. Most LEOs that I know personally know about attackers going for your legs or neck and taking you down or out alone or with their nasty friends. We focus on the most fight stopping methods that we can find. We have had practice with all sorts of attacks and attackers in the classroom. Many of us have had real bloody experience also. The eclectic approach is foremost in our teaching. This is why we accept anyone who wishes to exchange knowledge. An LEO may face life threatening challenges a couple of times or many times in his/her particular career. The same goes for military personnell. It is very important to practice the methods of as many types of attackers as possible but time constraints can impede much of this for most folks. Most LEOs and Military don't have the energy during a tour of duty to fight it out mano a mano. They cannot afford to take chances. Learning to deal barehanded with an attacker takes on a different meaning. Yes we do practice some of the various mounts and counters to see how they work. We also practice whatever it takes to go home at the end of our shift. One thing we do know for certain is that anyone at anytime can kill anyone else if he is determined and has a bit of luck in his/her favor. You can jump through hoops and walk the tightrope and sail on the trapeze but the smallest gun or sharpest knife or properly applied choke or eye gouge or neck break can end all your aspirations in a split second. You should train for the worst and gear down, if possible, when it is called for. I hope that this clears up some of your thoughts. JP
TOP OF PAGE
PLUS VIDEO LESSON
TO OUR FREE NEWSLETTER